[unpopularopp]

>The diminishing availability of third places

Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores"

Not sure I see any of these diminishing.

I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.

[justinator]

Many coffee shops in my town have closed due to high rents. The ones that have stayed have had their hours shortened. The one I got to is only open for 8 hours/day. My drink is now $6 too.

Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty.

There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones.

Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite).

One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy.

And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns.

Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).

[deanCommie]

Much of what you listed is a consequence of the Internet, which COVID exacerbated. It's unfortunate but society always changes, and this is one of them. It's OK to accept it and allow it to happen. Except one:

> Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty.

This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with.

This is worth fighting for. The internet is not a replacement for a library and more importantly librarians.

Not only that but since so much of society is inaccessible without the internet anymore, we need to have public spaces with internet access.

In my head we need to consider libraries on the same level of societal importance as police departments, firehalls, and hospitals. They all must be free and universally accessible or there's no point to the centuries of progress humanity has made. [0]

[0] obligatory edit - police departments ARE overfunded due to illogical unsubstantiated fear-mongering, and because they are forced to do work that they should not be responsible for, specifically challenges of mental health, drug addiction, and poverty. Which end up causing crime, and so the police get asked to fix the symptom rather than the root cause.

[justinator]

>This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with.

It's more that people don't want to pay for libraries and they think libraries will breed a place for homeless people to exist. The town is extremely well educated. There are also many wealthy, entrenched people here that do not want to mingle with poor people. Lot of NiMBYing. The wealth of the town unfortunately does not bread empathy.

[carlosjobim]

The internet shadow libraries are by far the largest and least censored to have ever existed in history. And they are accessible to all instead of just the people living in the exact right spot. They are so much better than any physical library, that it is really beyond any comparison.

A physical library is a nice and comfy environment, usually in a good location as well. But it is not honest to try to argue for them in any way as better than online tools. If the purpose is finding books and information and obtaining it, comparing a physical library to online libraries is like saying it is better to eat using your feet instead of with utensils.

[itishappy]

Internet libraries are accessible to those with access to the internet, which happens to be just one of many services offered by your local library! When my laptop was stolen I accessed the internet exclusively through a local library for about a year. I'd go most days and play League of Legends until they kicked me out. Good times!

> If the purpose is finding books and information and obtaining it, comparing a physical library to online libraries is like saying it is better to eat using your feet instead of with utensils.

There's your issue! Libraries have much broader scope than just physical books. They offer free childcare, classes and meetups, digital lending (also free). If you're struggling to find something on the internet, an actual human is there to help! They can even offer suggestions on books or websites tailored specifically to you, and they won't collect and sell your personal info to do so!

The internet is great, I spend a lot of time here, but libraries are great too!

[carlosjobim]

If you live somewhere without internet access, you aren't living anywhere near a decent physical library. There are many countries in the world that only have one large library, and it's located in the capital. Shadow libraries increases access for people in such a scale that it is beyond comparison. You can get any book you need at any time of the day, without waiting or going anywhere. If I didn't have access to shadow libraries I wouldn't be able to get a hold of the majority of the books I've read in the past years. Not even by paying.

With that fact, I see it difficult to motivate why money should be wasted on physical libraries in any larger extent. You mention other services in the libraries that go strictly beyond the purpose of a library. That's nice when somebody else is forced to pay for it, but I fully understand why politicians want to cut that from a budget. If the government was giving free Harley Davidsson-rides to the public, I'm sure a ton of people would love it as much as many people love the libraries, but it isn't justifiable to spend tax payer money that way.

I also loved sitting in the library and reading a magazine while waiting for the bus, but the money spent on libraries would be much better spent giving every child a Kindle. That gives access to books to so many more people, who would frankly not have been able to have access to them otherwise.

[itishappy]

I had an internet connection at my apartment, I just lacked a smartphone or laptop. (It was actually kinda nice.) I met a surprising number of people in a similar situation.

> You mention other services in the libraries that go strictly beyond the purpose of a library.

Your purpose. Many others use them for different purposes. Growing up, mine had sports fields that were always in use and the best sledding area!

The American Library Association says each library decides it's own purpose.[0] Many, such as the city library near me, are choosing to become community centers attempting to provide a third place. I'd argue this has value the internet cannot replace.

[0] https://www.ala.org/tools/challengesupport/selectionpolicyto...

[carlosjobim]

The explanation for all of these places closing down seems to be rent. They can't make enough money on being a third place to pay increasing rent to their greedy landlords.

So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.

[justinator]

Money is a big factor and again it gets messy. I think the median cost of a house here is north of $800k. Rent is also high. Hard to hack it as a barista, librarian, book clerk, gym trainer, etc.

[rchaud]

> So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places

And as with most 'modern' reboots, it's worse than the thing it replaces. Outdoor seating is worse than indoor, plus food trucks price gouge like crazy because they can.

[justinator]

>So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.

Everyone here owns $500 puffies so the drinks will flow (there's also an indoor space that's large). It's the anti-gay, anti-woman religion tie for me that makes me decide not to be a patron (not that I drink all that much...)

[michaelrpeskin]

Heh, I know exactly which town you're talking about. I host my own little "third space" workout group after the gyms closed for lockdowns, and it's been super successful. If you want to ever stop by let me know.

[johnfn]

Really? You don't see church diminishing, when church membership is at all-time lows? You don't see cafes reduced from places to have public conversation to places to do quiet, private work?

[unpopularopp]

Christian churches are still there, it's another question that people are going or not. In the UK we also have growing number of mosques each year.

[rchaud]

These aren't really third places, people don't show up to a mosque or church at any time of day to hang out. Maybe a church social, but that's an occasional thing and not the same as a neutral place like a coffee shop.

[vel0city]

As a teen, the church I grew up with had a very active youth community center. There was always some group of teens hanging out there, always events going on practically every night.

At the church I'm at now there's something happening at the church at least four days a week if not more often. The playground has kids playing just about every day it's open. There are small groups of people meeting up there constantly.

[JambalayaJim]

Third spaces are anywhere where people can hang out that doesn’t cost money, or doesn’t cost a lot of money.

I would say that churches apply actually. And it’s not just the service itself, you have a lot of people hanging out after service in my experience. And then there is always Easter, Christmas, etc when there are snacks and everyone congregates in the basement.

[barbazoo]

Churches don't seem to be going anywhere though so the option is still there. I also assume church membership varies very much by region.

[jmilloy]

In part I agree, but I want to add that what makes a third place isn't just the kind of place it is (gym, library) but the design and attitude. So these kinds of places may be numerous but that doesn't automatically make them actual third places.

[dingnuts]

Same applies to church. It's still there, but people have become more irreligious on average, so they don't even notice they've lost this social outlet / community, especially if the change happened between generations.

Then they complain about not knowing their community. Well, the church used to be the center of it. What's the center of it now? Something needs to be, and maybe it's something that can't be provided by government or business.

[fragmede]

The center of it for me are several communal housing places with large communal areas. They're not true replacements, as the people that live there are mostly similar - young professionals-ish without kids - and it isn't especially open to the public, which makes it not an true third place in my mind.

Businesses can't do it because they have a necessary profit motive - the bar doesn't especially care if you're buying drinks but they do care that they can't make rent and pay their bartenders and other staff.

We don't (or maybe we do) want to just hope a benevolent billionaire or collection of millionaires are going to swoop in and fund their places into existence. They're spending their money on palatial estates where you have to be in the know them to be invited, which makes it not a third place either.

No, third places need to be supported by the government - which churches and their tax breaks, and libraries with their funding, are. We have to accept a larger role of government than necessary evil, however, so I don't know if that's possible.

The problem with that is Americans aren't well socialized, so third places inevitably get the cops called and the places shut down. We all saw the Black neighbors getting the cops called on them by the scared White neighbors for the crime of having a BBQ and listening to music. The legal regime we live under is a huge part of it. Bars were barely a passable third space but when people don't drink anymore, there are no lounges to meet up and smoke pot in and just hang out at for hours.

[OfSanguineFire]

Some of the Dutch coffeeshops -- places which did exist just to smoke pot -- had a pretty firm policy of not bothering other patrons. They were for people to enjoy their selection of cannabis product or mushroom, but not really to socialize.

[unpopularopp]

>What's the center of it now? Something needs to be

It's the smartphone for most people

[lezojeda]

Every time I see someone asking where to meet people to date and then another person mentions gym you get a tons of comments bashing them about how the gym is NOT a place to find a date/gf/bf and you should absolutely not bother anyone. I mean, I understand the point, but the same is said sometimes about universities, random extracurricular classes, etc. so... where is people allowed to meet? Then we all scratch our heads wondering about the loneliness/depression epidemic and the atomization of society.