[pxcse]

> if you have enough knowledge of a particular language, you can be very fast and secure in your applications.

So everyone using any kind of framework is a moron or simply doesn't know what he is doing? Really?!

[cannibalXxx]

No, I'm just saying that even if we don't use a framework and have to do more work without it, we can build great, secure systems

[pxcse]

Of course you _can_ build great and secure systems without any frameworks. But do you _want_ to do that? If I had to build everything from scratch for which I'm using a framework or library right now then I would need _significantly_ longer which would place me and my team at a clear disadvantage against the competition.

There are tradeoffs for sure but you can't have everything all at once.

[cannibalXxx]

By the way, what language do you program in and what framework do you use?