[efaref]

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the "middle class" was a fiction invented by the capital class to divide the working class in two and pit them against each other. If you or someone in your family has to work so that you can survive, you are working class.

[pbmonster]

> the "middle class" was a fiction invented by the capital class to divide the working class

Totally agree.

> If you or someone in your family has to work so that you can survive, you are working class.

It's not so easy.

A dentist owning his own doctor's practice - the means of production, quickly worth several million dollars - does pretty clearly belong to the (petit) bourgeoise. His interest are often clearly opposed to that of the staff he employs. Every dollar saved on salaries, every day of vacation denied means more money in his pocket.

Yet he has to work every day.

The real difference are the means of production.

[generic92034]

I am not sure putting people working from pay check to pay check or having to work two jobs to survive in the same category as people getting middle six-figures TC would be helpful for analyzing the social strata.

[interpenetrate]

You don't want to be divided from the miners who extract the minerals and the factory workers who assemble the crappy tech that we design? I do. It's absolutely squalid over there.

[Timon3]

I sure don't! I want them to have it as good as I do, and I want to use my influence to make it so. This can only work if we are one group.

[interpenetrate]

You want to trade off positions with those 10 year olds in the quarries? That's fine. I'd rather go home at night to my family, watch The Wire with my wife for the tenth time, and then when everyone goes to sleep I'd like to come here and post on Hacker News. Please report back with your experiences.

[Timon3]

I didn't say that, or anything close to it. Funny how in your eyes the only way to not separate yourself from them is to literally do their job. Maybe you can ignore those 10 year olds in the quarries, but I think it's our responsibility to use our positions to improve their situations. It would be kind of neat if there weren't 10 year olds in the quarries, and they could instead go to school, no?

[interpenetrate]

Then who's going to do the mining? Adults? Do you want your iPhone, your car, your video games, your shoes, your plane trips, or not? All that stuff is gonna be "cost prohibitive" if all of these quarry kids go to school and all if these factory workers go home early. Cause: These unfortunate saps work 14 hours a day, eat straw, and have the philosophical thoughts whipped out of their brains. Effect: We live like kings and post all kinds of philosophy online. Don't believe me about this causality? Good, then we can go back to living like kings. You keep posting about ethics, and I'll keep posting about epistemology.

[Timon3]

Yes, it should be adults with good compensation. Child labor should never be acceptable to anyone, especially if you reap the rewards as described! I'd rather not live like a king quite as much, and have them have a better life. Or better yet, I'd rather have billionaires not exist and have both of us live like a king.

[hotpotamus]

I wonder how senior tech executives see those below them? I suspect they'd say much the same about you.

[interpenetrate]

I don't know about that. I'm on a first name basis with my CTO. I hope to never see in person those wretched souls mining the cobalt for my Tesla. Ghastly!

[cracrecry]

The man that invented the concept of classes to divide society in order to make them fight against each other was Marx. He created the concept of "class struggle" along the classes himself.

There was a very important reason for that. Early socialist leaders were usually selected among the best in any trade. The carpenters chose the best and most successful carpenter to represent them, and so on with most professions.

That was simply unacceptable for "intellectuals" like Marx or Lenin or Trotsky that never touched a tool or worked physically on their entire lives, something they were all the time being reminded by actual workers(something Lenin hated so much).

The new Frame made them the bosses on the new system.

Like Natzis could decide who was arian or jew, even if they had dark hair or jew parents, the marxist could decide who was working class and who did not. The children of rich jew merchants that were most marxist revolutionaries could became working class if they said so.

There are lots of people that do not accept the Marxist frame at all because they are not marxist.

>if you or someone in your family has to work so that you can survive, you are working class.

As someone who has lived in Africa , Asia, South America and Europe, I tell you that 90% of people in the US don't need work to survive. Unless by "survive" you mean things like buying a pickup truck.

There are kids in Africa in which "survive" means eating once a day and their minds being confused after two hours of work like learning to read.

[thiagoharry]

Class is a very useful concept to understand societies. It's not even an exclusively Marxist concept. Weber also uses the term, but uses different metrics than Marx to distinguish between classes. How can you effectively have a good understanding of feudal society without understanding the division between feudal lords and serfs. Or between citizens, outsiders and slaves in classical Greek societies?

In discussions about philosophy ans philosophical concepts, one do not need to agree with all the interlocutor's assumptions: it is just required to understand them and discuss them in a balanced way.