[qsort]

I despise random politics injections as well, but this is rather tame and very much in line with the ironic spirit of how Python release notes are written. I don't think it's offensive to anybody who doesn't go out of their way to become offended by things.

[moduspol]

Would you feel the same way if it were a cutesy poem supporting an opposing view?

[bscphil]

Both-sides-ism is not some kind of "free points" move in an argument. It's entirely consistent to believe (a) that a "tame" political statement supporting immigrants is acceptable in release notes, while also believing (b) that a cutesy poem defaming immigrants would be abhorrent and unacceptable. No one has an obligation to think that all political messages are acceptable just because they think that some political messages are sometimes acceptable.

Just to take an extreme example, imagine someone put in a note expressing empathy for the families of the victims of a natural disaster in their release notes. The following conversation takes place on Hacker News:

A: I don't really think these sorts of statements have a place in release notes. They don't ultimately accomplish anything or help anyone.

B: I think there's no problem with expressing compassion like this. It's not particularly obtrusive and isn't harming anyone.

You: How would you feel if the release notes had expressed glee at the disaster instead? You would oppose that, right? That means you must also oppose empathetic messages in release notes, to be consistent.

Or to sum up this whole thing in a dril Tweet: https://twitter.com/dril/status/473265809079693312

[moduspol]

> It's entirely consistent to believe (a) that a "tame" political statement supporting immigrants is acceptable in release notes, while also believing (b) that a cutesy poem defaming immigrants would be abhorrent and unacceptable.

The opposing cutesy poem wouldn't be defaming immigrants!

It would be acknowledging a nation can't exist without borders, sovereignty matters, and unchecked migration is not universally good.

That so many commenters here are missing a key factor here (that the opposing view is presented as a disingenuous straw-man in the release notes) is quite illustrative of why it's not being seen as an issue.

[Nullabillity]

> It would be acknowledging a nation can't exist without borders,

So the EU and US are both monolithic blocks with no internal diversity, right?

"Acknowledging" is an especially interesting choice of word here, as if presupposing that your misunderstanding of the world is inherently correct.

[twixfel]

Borders are a relatively new concept and nations existed before borders so what you're saying is trivially false.

The US was built on unchecked migration and it did pretty well out of it.

[0xFF0123]

Having a border is not the same as policing entry through it

[nothingnew2]

I think you've missed the entire point of the structure of the poem - the backward reading (ie, immigrants may share my home and food) is as "tame" as the forward reading.

>That means you must also oppose empathetic messages in release notes, to be consistent.

Yes. It will be interesting reading these cultural artifacts after 50 further years of geo-political development.

[IKantRead]

Could you articulate what that opposing view is in this case?

It's also worth pointing out that Python (and it's ecosystem) is developed by an international team of people, most of whom volunteer their time out of good will and sense of shared purpose across diverse cultures.

The "both sides" logic seems to miss the point that world without mutual aid and international, cross-cultural cooperation would be one that would not have Python and it's ecosystem. It's not political for the Python developers to support such a view, such a view is foundational for the existence of Python.

[moduspol]

One can be supportive of mutual aid and international, cross-cultural cooperation while also acknowledging that a nation doesn't exist without borders, sovereignty matters, and that unchecked migration is not universally good.

When you include the contemporary context of illegal US border crossings at record numbers [1], it's clearly making a political statement. Pretending the development of a programming language is inexorably linked to unchecked immigration is disingenuous.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2023/08/31/border...

[IKantRead]

Could you point out where they are supporting "unchecked migration"?

The statement there only reads to me as a call to have compassion for those caught up in what will be a perpetually escalating migration crisis (and will likely soon make migrants of those who are currently protecting their borders).

> Pretending the development of a programming language is inexorably linked to unchecked immigration is disingenuous.

Where am I (or anyone else) making that claim? I'm claiming cross-cultural/international cooperation and mutual aid are unquestionably tied to the development of not just a programming language, but all open source software. Anyone who has worked in this space at all can likely list someone they have worked with on nearly every continent.

The fact that you view calls for compassion and empathy as calls for "unchecked migration" is a bit concerning.

[mtlynch]

I'm not sure how to interpret these lines in a way that doesn't suggest support for unchecked immigration:

>Do not be so stupid to think that

>A place should only belong to those who are born there

>...

>It is not okay to say

>Build a wall to keep them out

[dkjaudyeqooe]

It's against zero immigration and building walls to keep out irregular immigrants (by definition) like refugees, none of that implies unchecked immigration.

[IKantRead]

I'm guessing you're not an American by this comment, at least from the US

>Do not be so stupid to think that >A place should only belong to those who are born there

Does not imply unchecked migration since the entire social fabric of the United States is a based upon people moving here from somewhere else. Currently around 14% of US citizens are foreign born. Claiming they don't belong here would be considered an extreme view even among fairly right-wing Americans. Implying that only people born here belong here is, in fact, a absolutely 0 immigration view, that would essentially destroy the United States since our population growth is almost entirely from immigration.

Likewise:

>It is not okay to say >Build a wall to keep them out

US immigration has not resorted to wall building as a form of immigration control for all but the most recent years. Again, nobody I know who is opposed to wall building supports "unchecked migration".

[moduspol]

Putting aside the fairly explicit lines in the poem: it's the context. It is not the case that the western world currently has no immigration and the poem makes the case to allow at least some.

More immigrants than ever are pouring over the US / Mexico border. The mayor of NYC (a self-proclaimed "sanctuary city") is now warning of the city's destruction as a result of the overwhelming influx [1]. This mayor is politically aligned with the party of our President, who presumably has no political interest in embarrassments like this, yet it's still happening.

"Unchecked migration" is essentially what is already happening, at least in the US. A cutesy poem in the release notes of software (??) that paints the side opposing it as mouth-breathing bigots and the supportive side as empathetic truth-tellers is unnecessary at best.

[1] https://cbs4local.com/news/local/nyc-mayor-warns-of-citys-de...

[dragonwriter]

> acknowledging that a nation doesn't exist without borders

At a minimum, you are confusing “nation” with “state”, as the former manifestly can exist without borders, which are a feature of the latter.

[seanw444]

> Could you articulate what that opposing view is in this case?

They wrote about how abortion is very often immoral and unnecessary. That would get people up in arms.

[burkaman]

Well it already is. You get to pick which direction you agree with.

[moduspol]

If you think both directions are comparable to actual perspectives people have, then it's already clear which perspective is yours.

[teddyh]

> You get to pick which direction you agree with.

One of the two opinions, which are all that exists. All reasonable people have the one opinion, and all other people are all idiots who all have the other opinion.

[earthboundkid]

People regularly say pro-Ukraine things that are anti-pacifist. Whatever, I understand that most people are not pacifists.

[MC68328]

That's a meaningless question, because I would never be using software from people promoting the opposing view.

You're all free to stop using Python.