[tptacek]

Being simultaneously unable to walk away from a six-figure salaried income and unable to bootstrap a company probably doesn't correlate well with "likely success as company founder".

You'd make a more compelling point if it was "I think the small amount of funding is going to prevent YC from generating ambitious companies because it was easier for me to start $COMPANY_I_CURRENTLY_RUN without YC". But anecdotally, it's the opposite: people fully capable of funding their companies are going to YC for the network and for the automatic increase in valuation.

You can compare other startup creation vectors that you have knowledge of to YC, but it's awfully hard to make a valid comparison between YC and a salaried job. If you're going to stay in a salaried job in our current white-hot market, you probably weren't going to start a company no matter what.

(There's nothing wrong with not starting a company. Even if YC starts 10 hugely ambitious, Airbnb-scale successes this cycle, it will still wash out a huge number of other companies. Careers made in salaried jobs have a lot to recommend them, and financial outcome is definitely one of them.)

An earlier version of me used to make the same point. "$20k for 6 points! That's a CEO's equity grant and one consulting project's revenue!" I feel dumb about that critique now that YC companies all seem to be getting uncapped convertible notes with minimal drama, and now that the YC network includes so many successful companies. Obviously, the YC money isn't the big draw anymore.

[samstave]

Either I didnt articulate my point well enough, or you misunderstood it.

The idea that YC can fund a web-app, mobile-app or completely web-based feature-as-a-service for 150K is well founded.

My point is that within the realm of "ridiculously ambitious ideas" are those that would require a shitload more seed capital to build out.

Do you think that SpaceX, which is obviously ridiculously ambitious, was seeded with simply 150K? Tesla? (obviously these are from the same ridiculously ambitious founder - but a well heeled founder with deep pockets.

I AM saying that there are certain dynamics which YC can't accommodate best.

YC is an absolutley stellar platform, but I would suggest that there should be a separate entry/avenue for projects which are not exactly suited for the traditional YC channel.

Maybe they could start out with "$150K to prove out the idea, consult with other experts in this space and connect with those who can help the idea along"

The point being that the initial 150K is not necessarily expected to going to the actual development of product as much as it is going to the furthering of the project.

EDIT:

I also wanted to point out that I failed in mentioning that the value that YC provides, with respect to exposure, network, connections, etc is immeasurable.

I am really just trying to say that for some groups/founders/cases/ideas -- You cannot look at the 150K funding and think that there will not be other struggles/issues.

I'd like a way to openly address/discuss this and find out what is best for each case.

PG: YC is the best thing to hit the valley since the transistor.

[tptacek]

Now you're zigzagging. Your original point was that YC might have trouble finding ambitious startups because the 150k YC companies end up getting isn't enough to get you out of your salaried job. That argument has an easy response: getting you out of your salaried job has a low expected ROI.

The rest of this point is just the same tired argument: yes, for any given startup, there is a more ambitious startup you can either point to or theorize. Which of them were ambitious startups of the kind postulated by Graham's post about ambitious startups?

Late edit: it's also a bit amusing that the two examples that spring to mind, SpaceX and Tesla, are two crazy shoot-the-moon ideas that could only have been the product of the force of will of someone like Elon Musk. Could you even imagine a seed funding model that would attract Elon Musk? What would it have to include? You might as well argue against the whole concept of seed funding.

[samstave]

First, If I am zigzagging - I am thinking out loud here on HN - and am happy to hear how I am wrong. SO please forgive me if I do contradict myself as I am trying to find the best way to articulate my thoughts.

I am fully open to being shown that I am flat wrong.

With that said:

Could you even imagine a seed funding model that would attract Elon Musk? What would it have to include?

This is part of my point. I can't think of such a ridiculously ambitious idea being seed funded.

PG said he wants the ridiculously ambitious ideas - I am saying that such ideas are likely not achievable with the traditional YC model.

So, to the second half of your comment; "What would it have to include?"

I am not sure, but lets think out loud here for a sec:

Given we are looking for the truly revolutionary ideas - what assumptions need to be in place in order to attract, identify, foster and enable these ideas:

First; lets recognize they can come from all walks. We need to be able to evaluate the ideas, quantify the effort and impact and accommodate whomever they may come from.

Maybe THIS is what the available YC resources should be positioned to do.

"You might as well argue against the whole concept of seed funding"

Maybe I am naive - but what if we change what our meaning of seed funding is within this context -- The seed funding is not for MVP, or first launch - the seed funding is exactly that - to seek out, identify and locate the seed - carry it and THEN plant it.

Again - please tell me if I am just sounding stupid - I am trying to think outside of constraints/conditioning I have observed in the traditional funding model.

Thanks

[tptacek]

I'm sounding snippier than I mean to.

YC has a model that seems like it would have stood a credible shot at capturing Google in 1997.

That there are companies more ambitious than Google that wouldn't even consider a "seed stage" is not, I don't think, particularly relevant.

Also: the point of YC is to put fingerprints on the maximal number of successful startups. Ideas from people who aren't inclined to start companies aren't a particularly important part of that. You lost me with "revolutionary ideas". Ideas aren't what's important.

[gruseom]

the point of YC is to put fingerprints on the maximal number of successful startups

One thing about YC that doesn't get enough attention is that by coming up with a model and articulating it (and generally doing everything) in a way that makes sense to hackers, they have grown the total number of startups. That is, some people who wouldn't have otherwise have founded a company have been inspired to do so. YC have made the pie higher! http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/bljokebushpiehigher....

In my opinion all sorts of social and macroeconomic good may emerge from this.

[hef19898]

If I remeber well the funding principles of YC, if you can call them like that, that's exactly the reason why they don't fund biotech start-ups for example. "Those are still ridicolously exapnsive" I think were the exact words used. The real value I see YC is providing to founders, no matter of the age, is access to a incredible network and contacts, funding that gets you over the three months of the programm plus the 150k $ you get without a lot of trouble. This way they take away a lot of pain in ther initial funding process. Combine with the access to top tier VCs and your money problem should become considerably smaller.

That said, it's true thats it's way easier if you are young with out a family, but still not impossible. The best scenario I could dream of is a year long payed sabatical while you are in YC. If you have an employer who's offering you that...

[jamroom]

Spot on - in fact I wonder if YC would be open to "funding" more groups if some of those groups didn't need the money? For us it's about the network like you pointed out.

[tptacek]

At 60+ companies in a cycle I think they're already going to start butting up into dilution.

If you have a program that is attracting the 60+ most viable candidates to start companies, it's kind of odd to expect that group to go into left field to start tapping risk-averse people for whom salaried jobs are so attractive they'd skip YC.

There's nothing wrong with those people! But the whole point of startups is to capitalize on timely combinations of risk tolerance and talent.

Can you imagine Larry Page and Sergey Brin taking Backrub to YC, had it existed, in 1997? It was their first startup. Am I saying they obviously would have? No. But I wouldn't have been surprised.