[krapp]

> are people normally actually seeing images, with their eyes, when they imagine what something looks like? Like, the brown-blackness of the back of your eyelids gets replaced with something you actually see, like it's projected there?

No.

>I can imagine what something looks like, and I guess I sort of 'see' it, but closing my eyes doesn't make it any more real. It doesn't seem to involve the eyes or any part of the visual system at all - it's somewhere else in my head.

Yes. That's all it is. Although it does seem to be indirectly related to the visual system, likely whatever part of it lets people "see" things when they dream, despite not actually processing visual stimuli through the eyes. It's just dreaming while awake.

[SirMaster]

That's not what's being described in this article though.

They are saying like how you see golden dots after gently rubbing your eyes. They are saying they see images like that. Definitely seems like more than just imagining seeing something.

When I rub my eyes I definitely see some dots that are way more real than not rubbing my eyes and just imagining dots.

[_dain_]

>No.

ahem. yes we do. we really, really do.

[krapp]

Really? Like you literally see the things you imagine?

How do you function? How do you manage to drive, without your thoughts blocking your view? How can you even tell if anything you see is real or a product of your imagination?

I feel like if that's what is actually happening you should see a professional.

[_dain_]

>How do you manage to drive, without your thoughts blocking your view?

They don't block the view, in the same way that the image from your left eye doesn't block the image from your right eye, even though they're overlaid on the same "mental space". Hold up your finger in front of your eyes, and focus on a distant object. You can see two images of the finger, but also see straight through them simultaneously. It's kinda like that.

And it usually doesn't manifest when I'm intensely concentrating on one task (unless deliberately imagining something is part of how I solve the task). At any rate, driving is mostly a system 1 activity, carried out autonomically. In real life, people's thoughts drift all the time when they drive. It's unavoidable and mostly not a big deal.

>How can you even tell if anything you see is real or a product of your imagination?

Because they're on different channels. Like stdout vs stderr.

>I feel like if that's what is actually happening you should see a professional.

Again, most people are like this. You are the one who is unusual. You probably have aphantasia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia

It's common for aphantasics to be initially completely incredulous at the concept of mental imagery, so you're not alone here. See this: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/baTWMegR42PAsH9qJ/generalizi...

>Galton gave people some very detailed surveys, and found that some people did have mental imagery and others didn't. The ones who did had simply assumed everyone did, and the ones who didn't had simply assumed everyone didn't, to the point of coming up with absurd justifications for why they were lying or misunderstanding the question. There was a wide spectrum of imaging ability, from about five percent of people with perfect eidetic imagery1 to three percent of people completely unable to form mental images

[krapp]

I don't profess complete incredulity at the concept of mental imagery. My experiences don't match those of people who claim to have aphantasia at all, I'm capable of imagining objects, events, actions, etc. in my mind. I just don't actually see them as if they were there. That's the part that seems unusual to me.

[geoelectric]

I'm fairly sure I'm aphantasic. When I try to imagine something I don't get any visuals, even the visual processing equivalent of subvocalization. Sometimes I can get a flicker of an outline or something but I can't hold the concept and it'll dissolve inside a second. I used to be a pretty good artist working from photos, but I can't compose in my head. At all.

But I do also know what familiar things look like more or less, and I can easily imagine layouts of buildings I know really well. I can explain those things verbally fine.

But it registers more in the way you might expect if you were encountering the object in darkness, or became blind after thoroughly learning the object as a sighted person. I imagine aspects of the object or scene in relationship to each other, sort of feeling over it with my mind, and cross-referencing with facts I remember about it. I'm wondering if that's what you're talking about--being able to conceptualize it rather than visualize it.

I did manage to imagine "blue" once during meditation, though, and that was pretty cool. I really saw it when I did--my whole visual field behind my closed eyes seemed sky blue. Normally I just see clouds of purplish dots on a black field, if there's no light shining through my eyelids, and it's been that way all my life. That experience, more than anything, convinced me people who say they "see" stuff in their mind's eye really do see stuff.

I'm definitely going to check out the linked technique. Maybe it's snake oil but doesn't seem likely to hurt to try. That blue experience was pretty compelling.

[JshWright]

Your experience sounds very similar to mine (even down to once visualizing a color (in my case green), which is what convinced me visualizing is really a thing and I really can't do it).

I describe my "internal" sensory experience as being similar to proprioception. In the same way you can "feel" where your left hand is relative to the rest of your body, that's how my relates to most objects/spaces.

[_dain_]

well where is your mental imagery? can you not do it with your eyes open?

[krapp]

>well where is your mental imagery? In my mind.

>can you not do it with your eyes open? I can. I just don't actually, physically see it in front of me.

I can imagine a red apple, and I can imagine it's shape and color and the spots on its skin and I can even mentally feel it, smooth or bruised, I can even taste it, but just in my mind.

[loosetypewriter]

Can people who literally "see" clear mental images look at a blank piece of paper, imagine an image, and then just trace it out? I have never seen anyone do this, but based on the way mental imagery is described online by people who claim other people are aphantasiac, I don't understand why it's not a very common ability.

[_dain_]

Some people can, but it's not common. For me the image isn't stable or detailed enough. I imagine it would get better with practice.

[coumbaya]

Well it's not like it's blocking your view, it's kind of a separate thing, you know it's not real and you retain the entierty of you eye's information.