[throwaway1183]

Arguing with you has been quite productive! Thanks for writing the detailed response. It shows me the perspective of where you come from. I am baffled and in awe at what you can achieve with one correct process and routine. I still have some opinions but those are useless because you have a proven track of the things that I exactly wanted to know.

1. How do you get the confidence over time? I am sure I can also do what you can but will take me 3x or heck even 4x the effort. So, it feels a bit sad to know by the time I am done, it will be worthless despite enjoying the process.

2. I liked how you admitted you forget things too. So this process of relearning for the nth time, does it make the experience enjoyable? For me, I find it tiring to know that I have to do the same thing over and over and some people just get by. It feels kind of disheartening. And more to it, now it's AI that can do it better.

3. I have tried different things big or small. Did quite a few interesting things but nothing remarkable at all. I like engineering/design and making usable things. However, whatever I do is never enough for "others" while it is really okay for me. Now this is the source of all issues. Once I finish a project, I move on to the next project or venture. There is no introspection from what I built. I just like building but not pushing. Consequently, they do not look impressive because they are just replicas nothing more. I get the illusion that I am learning things, but once I blindfold and try to recreate it, I can't. It is disheartening too.

4. I actually come from a disadvantaged background. English is not my primary language. Thus, I put in extra effort whenever I do something to compensate for the lack of communication. It has helped me. Now not everything can be communicated when there is no remarkable portfolio to show. As you have proven yourself, things take time to build. The problem here is I can't afford the luxury of time because of other aspects of life. I get an hour of free personal time at max.

5. The whole idea of finding an average job was to finish it within 4 hours (because I don't have to put effort) and later use the remaining time for myself. This is the only way in which I believe I can make substantial progress in self-improvement.

6. Answering your final question. I am poor in terms of background, skills, and execution (time management). I can do enough to get by but not enough to impress or get other people interested in me for opportunities. This is why I am direly seeking a position where I can get by and still get a chance to improve. I thought college would give that, but it didn't. I thought a postgraduate would give that, but it didn't. I want something easy because I am genuinely tired.

So, I am not living up to my potential, I am not getting hired because I don't have "experience" for entry-level positions in the field I am interested in. (Idk why it's called entry-level). Consequently, I just want to get through life, find easy tasks, get things done, and then carry on from there.

[Exuma]

These are good question, and the first one of which is especially poignant for me, far more than you would realize. I have in past talked about intuition based learning (me) vs ... what I'd say 90% of developers are which is a practical/observational based learning. For me ESPECIALLY it's poignant because in my internal model of the world, I do NOT rely on things I've achieved previously to "carry me" through future interactions, or confidence in speaking. I simply don't think like that. Instead, it feels a like an silent void where every situation is infinitely complex with multitudes of different variables from every other experience in my life. I don't think many people are like that. I talk a lot more about this elsewhere if you actually are interested. It was months back let me find it... in it I talk more about my version of "confidence"

Ok I found it, start here: https://i.imgur.com/o3xT5Jh.png and then my reply here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161

I have no idea if you are like that or not, but don't cut yourself short thinking it takes 3-4x the effort.

Let me think about your questions throughout the day, as my mind has a lot layers of interconnected fibers, and I want to distil them all down into the most meaningful/impactful statements.

[throwaway1183]

Sure, take your time!

After reading your reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161, it resonated with me because I am this type of learner. I need to break things fast, reach the wrong answer, and get stuck so that I can see examples and learn from them. It is really good at getting what is out there. But being in academia surrounded by people who learn from abstraction and words, I can't get any confidence to speak about myself. It feels like I have seen the other side and now I am constantly evaluating myself with that.

I always thought this way of learning was fake learning because everything relied on intuition and most of the time my intuition was wrong. I had to go back re-read and attempt again. Once I fixed it, I was done with it and next time I had to restart from scratch because to me, it's a completely new situation. This made me feel like I never learnt anything in the past and I was actually someone who cheated the system because I knew exact things to be said in the right way. Like an incantation of a magic spell.

But after reading your reply, I will now dive a bit deeper into this kind of learning and see how it resonates with my internal world and learning! Thanks for sharing it!

> The downside is always when I’m around strong people of the other type I get the sense they don’t respect this style of learning sometimes. It comes through in their words, tone, subtle body language cues.

This is also one source of in-confidence. Everything started with the introduction of LLMs. It just punishes the person like me because I have a unique way of doing things. I claim this because I rapidly process information, try to understand behaviors and execute it. In any case I can't do it, I resort into finding other sources who has done it. I can understand the solution as long as it is written in clear way. It can be research paper, books, equations, code, blog, even just some random discussion as long as it hints into certain direction to trigger a spark. After that I try to use whatever I think is the best.

Simply put, I can give a solution, not just the best one but one to get 80% job done.

[Exuma]

It's absolutely not fake. I still haven't replied yet but I did want to say this one thing while you're waiting... A lot of people dislike MBTI by saying its "not scientific," but this to me is irrelevant as I am an extremely introspective person who has dived to the ends of the earth to understand myself. I've spent what must be 100,000+ hours introspecting and for most of my life there existed many many paradoxes that I just COULDNT ever explain, let alone even begin to understand. They existed as complex webs of phantoms in my own mind, where I'd go to speak it and it would "collapse" in meaning to "not actually what I meant". It wasn't until I discovered my MBTI type (INTJ) and how my cognitive function stack operates that I had about 1000 epiphanies that blew my mind. It was one of the most profound introspective moments of my whole life, because it made about... maybe 20 or 30 paradoxes Ive never been able to understand all click right after another after another after anohter.

2 things:

1) MBTI is most effective when looking at the cognitive functions, NOT just the overall "type" which is more generic. You really have to research about each function type, and what your function stack is, to get the most value.

2) I don't think MBTI is a perfect solution for every type, but I'm one of the lucky types (maybe intuitive introverts) who I feel benefit the most. For my type specifically, it describes me SO WELL that its scary. Far far more accurately than a 'random' or non-scientific theory could describe me.

I watched this video about myself and it says things that no person has ever understood about me, at a level so deep its like touching the heart of my soul: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKzX-D2-GM

You could look more into taking this test to narrow down what your function stack is https://sakinorva.net/functions

If you resonate at all with what I said in that post you might be something similar.

When I understood these things, I stopped seeing them as me being "broken" per se... I mean I never thought I was broken but I would be very frustrated why my mind was always "empty" when other engineers seem to always have a neverending objective stream of concrete ideas.

Over time, as I read more and more and more about functions, I started to see and relate to people much better and differently, and also see how the parts of me I used to be confused at are actually huge advantages. And the areas where I am weak at (extremely in-depth domain knowledge) I can interact with those people and lean on them for that.

[sokoloff]

> it describes me SO WELL that its scary.

There are only 16 types. While that's a few more than zodiac signs, does it seem likely that 16 categories would describe people in a specific enough way to be falsifiable? I see them as 16 categories with overwhelmingly positively biased descriptions, making people prone to seeing themself in the category description.

I'm not saying the underlying axes are completely wrong, but if you read the 4 descriptions which are one letter off of your MBTI type, do at least 2 of them also resonate with you?

https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/the-16-...

[Exuma]

Did you not read anything I said? I don't even know how you can type what you did unless you didn't read.

I do not care about whether or not it's a system that describes "all types", I literally said that in my original post that it might be completely useless to most "types" or it could just be not an all encompassing formula at all. I care that it describes MY TYPE, or even more specifically, ME.

Did you watch the video I put and the subjects he talks about? The things he discuss in that video resonate so well with me to the deepest interworking mechanisms within my own mind, and they're complex in nature, they are not vague statements.

All if this anyway is completely irrefutable to me, because I have observed it. No amount of Hacker news people lamenting that it's not scientific will ever change my mind, as I know my own mind 1000x better, and I know what explains it and what does not. I know how it's interwoven and related in 1000 interconnected ways, and the ways it is not. I can look at certain things about my mind and see them so clearly it's like looking at the sky is blue.

I also literally JUST said the "overall descriptions" are too general to be useful, and the real benefit is learning the actual function stack, and in what positions. Looking at 4 sentence descriptions of types to disprove what I'm saying is a stupid endeavor.

Most of everyone's interpretation has to do with behavior, this probably makes it "bite sized" for low-attention span people who just want to take quizzes online and move on. For the most part, it has nothing to do with behaviors, at least the parts I am interested in. It has to do with the way the brain perceives, processes, interprets, and assimilates information in vastly different ways.

[throwaway1183]

I did these tests some times ago! If I fall into INTP/ENTP because I think of myself as an ambivert and my introvertness is a spectrum that varies with my emotions.

Thanks for pointing a out functions! Will definitely check it out.

[Exuma]

Multiple parts its too long ===

Interesting, so that is in the group I mentioned (intuitive introverts) which probably benefit the most. I know several other INxx types in my life who had profound realizations after reading about functions which helped them understand "why am I like this?". I think because any Ni/Ne functions are very confusing to understand, as the majority of the population doesn't operate like that. So all advice you will generally get doesn't even align with the core way your brain operates. If MBTI stats are correct, only about 20% of the population is N type.

I won't talk about MBTI too much as I want to answer your questions, but there is a bit more here to unpack. If you find the functions useful, great. If not, also great. I'm not trying to "push" anything (for example IM sure there are flaws with the model, but as far as intuitive introverted types, INFP/INFJ/INTJ/INTP I think it really NAILS it. The creator of MBTI was INFP so perhaps that's why). I'm only saying for me personally it was one of the most profound realizations I've had in "WHY AM I LIKE THIS???". Not knowing never "blocked" me from being ambitious or having success, but it made it so much harder and more confusing and stressful. It literally drove me mad, like phantom in my head that wouldn't go away. Now all that is gone, all that's left is serenity and power.

First you can already see people replying about how its BS, ignore that and decide for yourself. Just watch that channel I sent, watch his INTP/ENTP video and see if it resonates for you (5 signs youre not INTP/5 signs youre not ENTP). If it does, it should resonate SUPER deeply. If it "sort of" resonates, try another type. If none resonate, move on.

INTP functions are Ti/Ne/Si/Fe. Keep this image up as you're looking at stuff...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/4FOxRzLRbFa1d3dGmNC8csMUT7...

Also this one...

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e3/a7/cd/e3a7cd2cd36588ed593491234...

There's a lot of good info here and here specific to IN and NP types (maybe read later if you feel like it):

https://personalityjunkie.com/infj-intp-intj-infp-enfp-entp-...

https://personalityjunkie.com/the-intp/

This info is more "generalized" though you will have to do a lot of reading on your own. Thats why I recommend just watching those videos first, he really goes in extreme depth which is why I like it - high information density.

5 signs youre not INTP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jUosExjWPg

If you end up not being an INTP, you still could be a dominant/auxilary Ti user like ENTP, etc. Watching those videos and reading will help you narrow it down.

As for your questions --

Something about them I can't put my finger on it. I hate to bring up MBTI again (but as I said it's so relevant to me in my everyday life. this is why I love it, it helps me navigate certain peoples minds). I think you should read about Ti for sure, as I am an extremely heavy Te user, which are very different (this image important):

https://i.redd.it/4e2apeqtkgv41.png

Ti (you): https://64.media.tumblr.com/1754979912c37e66ed0412faf30b1204...

Te (me): https://64.media.tumblr.com/0c08f87f12be1b57ebf4e2f89a4a9afd...

Efficiency is one of my absolute highest values, and simplification, and generally for me, I don't HAVE to understand something in order to just fix it. Ti is quite the opposite (if you are in fact INTP), and so you must consider what I'm saying in your own context. My advice likely will feel "off" to you, but simply understanding WHY it's off is a huge part into relating it to your own methods. For example this feels very "off" to me, what you said: "So, it feels a bit sad to know by the time I am done, it will be worthless despite enjoying the process." This seems like a perfect demonstration of Ti vs Te. For me, EVERYTHING I do is attached to a higher meaning, I don't ever learn for learning itself. If I am learning stats, its to solve an algorithm. Even if I'm learning something stupid like making that 3d cube, I will never create a 3d game but the entire purpose of why I did it was to challenge myself and see "am i capable of doing this? Am I smart enough?" It wasn't because I simply "enjoy the process" of learning about projection matrices. And by this logic, I will NEVER be "sad" that it was worthless, because I quite literally NEVER do things that do not have some purpose attached to it, and that is paramount to my type Ni + Te. I DONT enjoy the process of learning in and of itself, I enjoy the thing at the end and the achievement. This is a perfect example, just that one small sentence, why I love learning about cognitive functions. Things like this you will go read though on the internet for advice and you will have types like me, Te, telling you "why would you worry abou tthat?" and the way your mind processes information is just different. You need to look at Ti specifically and Ti advice to learn how to answer that question.

so here goes, despite that.

1. I find confidence over time because I have just always trusted myself above anyone else, even as a kid. I grew up in complete isolation, so that probably has a lot to do with it. I had an extremely torturous childhood as well which made me very independent (no one else will help me except myself). That's always been an underlying thread in my life, so even though I will be NOT confident "work wise" in new situations with new teams, I still make do just fine. Ive trusted my code and my abilities by just DOING a lot of code and personal projects. I have over 100 personal projects, and not just 100 hello world apps, but actual projects. I think it's all about building reference points, as basically the thing that "solves everything."

2. I think I addressed this above, but I dont enjoy the process of learning without meaning, I enjoy applying energy into achieving a direct meaningful outcome using any means necessary, including vast amounts of learning. So when I learn it again and again because I forgot, I think nothing of it.

As far as "AI" doing it better, heres another example where I literally cannot even relate to that thought. I am an infinitely complex machine with cognition, capable of doing anything I want. I have consciousness, ambitions. ChatGPT is literally a LLVM in a browser that cannot write any more than basic code without bugs. Again I feel this is a Ti/Te thing... if learning is a means to an end for you, perhaps it feels like this "thing" has "bested you" because it "knows everything," making the pursuite of learning as a means to an end "more pointless." For me, I give zero fucks about that. ZERO. because how does that affect me? If I want to earn 1 million dollars building an app, then ChatGPT is not going to block me from doing that, in fact it will help me probably. It's just a tool, nothing more (funny because I think this is actually what the image above says, Te treats information as a tool). It literally has NOTHING to do with me, or what I'm capable of. It has nothing to do with my learning other than SPEEDING IT UP by a factor of 100x. Now again, you would have to apply that to Ti or reconcile it a different way to how you think. Perhaps you could look at it like, chatGPT did nothing other than put information that ALREADY EXISTS into a certain form. If you were upset by chatGPT making your learning meaningless, then why were you not upset by the information already existing in the first place? Why do experts in their respective fields not upset you? Is all the SAME information simply being regurgitated by a model rather than all the worlds leading experts really change anything? I have no idea if that line of questioning helps, but thats probably how I would think about it.

Are you starting to see why I like function stacks? Its for nuanced complicated things like this. Even a single sentence, of how we disagree, it can start to illuminate so much of WHY which then begins the process of integration and BYPASSING those things which we are stuck on.

more good examples: https://practicaltyping.com/2021/01/25/5-differences-between...

I believe INTP is one of the most depressed types if I remember right because they have the hardest stack to "deal with" life (really paraphrasing here). Theres entire books written about dealing with being an INTP:

https://personalityjunkie.com/intp-book-personality-careers-...

All of this is only about Ti even, this doesn't even go into the complex world of Ni vs Ne, and how 80% of the rest of the world has dom/aux Ni/Ne function at all, but rather Si/Se

[Exuma]

3. is more of the exact same. I can't even begin to relate to these ideas, because they aren't even issues to begin with...

"I like engineering/design and making usable things" => Make usable things. I don't make unusable things because its waste of time, I make things that give me what I want most (freedom), which also correlates to money. I just really enjoy programming as that process of doing it

"However, whatever I do is never enough for "others" while it is really okay for me" => I literally give zero fucks about others, I'm sure thats obvious by now. I literally couldn't give a flying asshole hair about what someone's opinion is. Seriously though, I picked a business partner I got along with, and we built things, and made lots of $, and had lots of fun, and I wake up every day excited for what the day brings. I work very very hard, but it never feels like "work." Thinking of "others" is so far from my realm of reality that ... well, even when I worked for someone at my first job, I didn't care about that. I care about what I value above others.

"I move on to the next project or venture. There is no introspection from what I built." => Hmm... I have some of the most painful failures in some projects you could ever imagine. I have 2 stories that come to mind, where it was absolutely soul crushing. Think of that guy who sold his shares in apple for $4000. its kind of like that. Even for these projects I dont really feel introspection, just reference points to expand my experience, and make me battle hardened. I don't think much of them, or lament about them. I also dont have any major epiphanies of introspection about them. They just happened, and thats that.

"because they are just replicas nothing more" => Again this is like a Ti/Te thing I think. For my own code, I treat it like art. You might think if I care about things as a "tool" then I dont care about code quality or how it looks. Quite the contrary, I think my type is extremely creative characteristically, and I am also extremely creative. I like to draw and paint as much as I like to code. I embody both extremely logical and extremely creative processes, so I treat my code like art. The best solution to me is an elegant one. So I also would be bothered by creating hollow replicas of things IF I didn't have something else more meaningful to me. My neovim config is something dear to me. I've refined my vim/neovim config for my entire professional life, and it feels like my "essence" as weird as that sounds. Its very meaningful to me. So I channel my positive creative energy into things that DO matter, while I can also throw up a cheap replica I did in a day and not think that it hurts my identity. If I didn't have those other meaningful things though, it WOULD hurt me for sure. I channel my soul and being into most code I write, and thats part of why big failures hurt me so much, it feels like a part of me is gone. I used to apply my energy to anything and everything in 20s, and now Im far more deliberate about what gets that "soul juice". the rest of the time, other things get a dilluted form of my energy that doesnt take away from me.

"The problem here is I can't afford the luxury of time because of other aspects of life. I get an hour of free personal time at max" => This is probably one of the largest problems I see here. Out of the entire post. Is this something you can fix in any way possible? Is it because of school? Are you sure its a real problem that cant be fixed? When I started I did freelancing for 8 hours a day and then spent the whole rest of the day learning and doing my own personal projects. When I had my first job, I worked 8 hours a day coding at a company, and another 5-8 hours building my own first app. Ideally theres a lot of time you can make, if you cut out TV, going out, etc.

5.

"The whole idea of finding an average job was to finish it within 4 hours (because I don't have to put effort) and later use the remaining time for myself. This is the only way in which I believe I can make substantial progress in self-improvement" => I think you should read the stuff I put above, I think it might answer this better than I could. It sounds like you might have an "energy" problem to resolve.

6.

"I want something easy because I am genuinely tired." => Ask yourself what you want. For me, I value freedom. And money means freedom. I want to be able to wake up, do anything I want, buy anything I want, travel anywhere I want. It doesnt mean I'm always doing it, but thats what I wanted.

When I started, I envisioned it like candles. Id think of a "fallback" about if i could do this ONE thing for the rest of my life, I would be happy. I really love traveling, and theres a whole field of "vegabonding" where you travel for as little money as possible. For a few thousand a month, I could travel the world with a laptop. I KNEW that I COULD achieve that, and so I always knew in the back of my mind "if I lose everything, and fail at everything, I will always have that". This allowed me to get that fear out of the way, and then naturally something bigger came along through applied effort. And then I replaced that candle with a brighter candle (a big project doing well, etc). I always kept replacing my "worst case fallback" and upgrading it, knowing if EVERYTHING I do fails, I will always have "X" to fall back on. Over the years, that has just grown to bigger (and multiple) candles. It has been a gradual process over the years.

I suspect though all of that will be fairly meaningless to you or not helpful as IF you are dominant Ti user then you might not think like that (but I hope it helps!), but perhaps that INTP book would help if I did not. I do know lots has been written about "life purpose for INTPs" who seem to struggle with it.

"So, I am not living up to my potential, I am not getting hired because I don't have "experience" for entry-level positions in the field I am interested in." => For this, practically speaking, this is why I work for myself and not others. Theres an entire other world most people dont even know about. Theres a HUGE amount of money to be made through being an entreprenur. My immediate friend/business group is made up of all very successful, very rich entrepreneurs, none of which were "born into money" like lots of people are always talking about. Some of them own some of the largest networks of certain industries in the entire world. These people are everywhere, this world exists if you look for it. Marketing/entrepreneur groups are a great place to start, as while I dont agree with most of what they say (I am techincal they are not) theyre great for meeting or interfacing with potential business partners. My facebook is full of tons of those movers and shakers, like the media buyer for a FAANG company who owns an agency, or the largest mover of product X on facebook etc, theyre constantly wanting to create joint ventures with people. You dont HAVE to work for someone if you do not want to. And, there are lots of very complex problems to solve if youre smart enough to do that. Theres no limit to how much you can use your brain.