[hdesh]

There's a survey done by Equality labs which is fundamental to this law and the one in Seattle city. Other scholars have argued[0] that this survey is flawed in many ways.

There was a case against Cisco systems for alleged caste-based discrimination, which also was often mentioned in such coverage in the past. It is noteworthy that the case was dropped. More details with legalese is here[1] and a piece by Hindu America Foundation (that opposes such bills) is here[2].

Not to say that caste is not an issue among Indians (in India), however using this survey as the ultimate truth and a source for creating laws does not seem wise.

[0] https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/09/social-realities-of...

[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u0jxQY_cLti2XP3nEw0d9OBa...

[2] https://theprint.in/opinion/dismissal-of-cisco-case-proves-e...

[uhhhhhhh]

I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste.

Either it doesn't happen/doesn't happen enough for a law so this is most effectively virtue signalling without any negative outcomes.

Or it does happen and this can help take steps against it.

There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality.

[AnimalMuppet]

> There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality.

This. The US is not here for you to reproduce your oppressive hierarchy from the old country, no matter what hierarchy it was or what country it was from.

[rramadass]

An admirable sentiment but essentially useless in solving a problem which is actually more complicated and nuanced than a superficial reading might lead one to believe.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774

[rramadass]

>I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste.

From the article;

Suhag Shukla, the executive director of advocacy group Hindu American Foundation, said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians”. The group has lobbied against the bill, saying its passage would trigger a rise in Hinduphobia.

It is a very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good. See https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-ho...

There have been many articles submitted previously on this subject. You might want to study the reports done by Carnegie Endowment on Indian-Americans listed in my previous comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418

[cardiffspaceman]

You’re asking us to surf all of your supporting links instead of making a case on your own and then referencing these links, so I feel I’m just reading “No it isn’t” pleas rather than arguments. It was common for American whites to claim that laws against racial discrimination missed the nuances, with lots of knowing nods in the audience. You could search this yourself.

[rramadass]

>You’re asking us to surf all of your supporting links instead of making a case on your own and then referencing these links

Yes and for a very good reason; i don't want to bias your understanding of the matter with my own take/words. Given the amount of misinformation/insinuations/malicious agendas/emotional manipulations involved over this subject it is imperative that people read up on both the objective (Carnegie endowment article) and subjective (both pro and con articles) before trying to discuss/understand the issues. Hence i have provided a very small number of relevant links which can easily be read in a few minutes for personal edification.

See also : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37701727

[uhhhhhhh]

Many similar arguments were made against laws protecting race and other classes we now legally protect. The supposed future actions of a bigoted few is not an argument that stands against refusing to protect another group or stand up against a wrong.

Fundamentally cultural incomparability is not racist. Your arguments for, and tolerance of caste discrimination, are not compatible with western ideals.

You may keep your views and culture and live how you like. I wish you and others no ill will. I will advocate for others around me to respect you while disagreeing with what you say or how you act in this case.

Caste Discrimination is wrong and is not welcome in the society were currently discussing legally. If you require that ability, or the toleration of that, then you are not welcome in said society.

[rramadass]

Your comment is a very good example of what is wrong with the discussions on "Caste Discrimination" in the US; which is a lack of knowledge and nuance involved.

Discrimination in any form (both explicit and implicit) is already illegal in the US and laws exist for its redressal. Workplaces can make it very explicit in their policies as needed. Hence any caste discrimination problem can be treated on a case-by-case basis rather than by a blanket bill which will paint a big target on the backs of a whole community for no fault of their own i.e. presumption of guilt will be instituted. This is even more important when you realize that there are malicious/vested interests involved which are at work to fracture and damage a hardworking and upstanding community who are in a upward trajectory in the US.

Note that Google did not allow Equality Labs (and others) to do their rabble-rousing in the company due to these very reasons i.e. they would deal with it on a case-by-case basis if it happened. Last i checked, the Cisco case has also been dismissed as not involving caste discrimination. All evidence points to caste discrimination NOT being "widespread and systemic" in the Indian-American community. Pushing through laws/bills based on sentiment/insinuations is the very definition of Wokeism/sjw gone wrong.

> The supposed future actions of a bigoted few is not an argument that stands against refusing to protect another group or stand up against a wrong.

"Caste" is quite different from Racism etc. Most educated Indians in the US (and in urban India) do not identify with caste at all and as pointed out above it is not the problem that it is being painted to be in the US by vested interests. One should not institute make-believe fairness which may make matters worse when there is not much evidence of unfairness in the first place.

I must again ask you to read and understand the points raised in my other comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37701727

> Your arguments for, and tolerance of caste discrimination, are not compatible with western ideals.

You either have a severe lack of English comprehension skills or are deliberately insinuating things which i have not said at all (you owe me an apology). I have never argued for nor advocated tolerance for caste discrimination but am pointing out the lack of evidence on the ground for the same in the US. Your above line is the very reason why Indian-Americans are fighting against these sort of bills i.e. ignorance coupled with wokeism making decisions with no clue of what the consequences might turn out to be.

[lawlessone]

>said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians”

How?

[rramadass]

Read the article on Firstpost.com that i have linked to above.

[daswerth]

> very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good

I'm very interested to understand the "more harm than good" part, but the firstpost article you linked doesn't touch on them at all. The article seems to be focused on how the special interests groups are pushing their special interests.

[rramadass]

Huh? The article explicitly states certain problems from which further inferences can be made. Some excerpts below;

There is a concern that Hindu and Indian employees will now be looked at with suspicion because employers simply won’t want to deal with frivolous lawsuits.

From the get-go, CoHNA made it clear that they abhor caste discrimination. Dalits and “lower” caste members of CoHNA were vocal that this law would institutionalize the very thing Equality Labs claimed to be fighting.

CoHNA made the strong case that although the language of the ordinance identifies caste among many religions and ethnicities, Hindus are most closely associated with caste. It very clearly paints a target on the backs of Hindu Americans and Indians and creates a presumption of guilt. There are no clear ways to identify caste or implement anti-caste discrimination laws in America.

Sara Nelson voted “No”. She asked whether the Seattle City Council had any data to support Equality Labs and Sawant’s claims of “widespread and systemic” caste discrimination. She also made the point that without ways to identify caste, there would be no way to implement it properly.

How exactly do you determine who is an “upper” caste and who is a “lower caste”? And if you can’t determine what caste someone belongs to, how do you litigate that case?

Even if you could identify someone’s caste, what would the city do if someone from a “lower caste” attempted to sue someone from another “lower caste”?

If someone chooses not to identify with a caste and someone accuses them of caste discrimination, will the city of Seattle force a caste upon them?

Thankfully, we can reference a rigorous study from the Carnegie Endowment which largely disagrees with Equality Labs’ findings.

Instead, they found that there is very little caste identification among Indian Americans, especially in those born in America and that there is even less discrimination actually experienced. It is very far from widespread and systemic.

This study acknowledges Equality Labs and criticizes the findings and methodology, most notably that Equality Labs simply removed responses where people did not identify with a caste at all.

Without guidelines on how it will be implemented, it has the opportunity for great misuse. Hindu children will now be looked at with suspicion in college admissions if they choose not to identify as caste because Equality Labs says that this is a mark of privilege and indicates “higher caste” or “oppressor caste”. Hindu and Indian employees will now be looked at with suspicion because employers simply won’t want to deal with frivolous lawsuits,

And finally, it paints the entire Hindu religion in the way Equality Labs would like – as irredeemable and worthy of dismantling as Soundararajan has stated in multiple interviews and tweets.

[xxpor]

From the google doc link:

>There has been no ruling yet on whether any form of caste-based discrimination or harassment had in fact occurred.

[rramadass]

The fact that this comment is downvoted says a lot about the cluelessness/agenda of some of the people here.

The listed links to articles give the actual data which helps one to make an informed decision if one would but read them.

[desi_ninja]

There is nothing uniquely different about caste discrimination than Shia/Sunni divide among Muslims or Han Chinese/non. If you goto Africa, similar fault lines are there. It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two, unless provided oxygen by these laws. There isn't a widespread precedence for a law which uniquely targets Indians and them asked to prove their non-caste behaviour. Current anti discrimination laws are good. Still these laws keep getting passed. This is witch hunting.

https://www.hinduamerican.org/all-about-caste

[logicchains]

>There is nothing uniquely different about caste discrimination than Shia/Sunni divide among Muslims or Han Chinese/non

Shia/Sunni discriminating against each other is religious discrimination, which is banned in the US. Han Chinese discriminating against non-Han is racial discrimination, which is banned in the US. Indians discriminating against other Indians based on cast is not banned, if they share the same race and religion. The new law aims to remedy this gap.

[jandrese]

> It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two

Historically this sort of discrimination is incredibly sticky whenever it appears. People teach their kids and their kids teach their kids and so on. Then their neighbors, media, etc... reinforce the stereotypes with stories about said groups. It's incredibly difficult to stamp out because it is so self-reinforcing.

[EliRivers]

It is social evil which is at verge of extinction in a generation or two, unless provided oxygen by these laws.

I see no reasonable way that a law saying caste-discrimination isn't ok will cause people to start discriminating by caste. I think that's utter nonsense and you're going to have to provide some kind of evidence for such an outlandish assertion.