[agateform]

>But most groups who say "I'm not anti woman, just anti feminism" are flat out patriarchal, whether the flavour is religious or "men's rights", it's the same garbage.

Unfortunately my perception is similar to yours. I have seen enough nut case traditionalists and misogyny to not want to get involved with mans rights movement. Traditionalist ideology hurts MRM and I feel they are shooting themselves on the foot by allowing this sort of thing.

This is why I can't see my self associating with MRM or Feminists. Both groups can be pretty extreme although both have some (in my opinion) good goals like womans rights to choose & legal paternal surrender.

Thank you for your comment.

edit: I must say that I have seen MRM people against traditional patriarchy. Their idea is that a patriarchy does not allow men to be free.

[JulianMorrison]

Yeah, patriarchy does hurt men. Gender policing, compulsory sexuality, enforced emotional shallowness, the breadwinner/nurturer split and its side effects in family law, even the classic apologia for the the glass ceiling uses the fact that women demand work/life balance - implying men can be overworked. But I can't see the MRM having an easy time admitting that while patriarchy does hurt men, it hurts women worse.

If they admitted that, they'd be feminists.