[ptx]

No, not really. The first three criteria of the Open Source Definition [0] are essentially freedoms 1–3 of the Free Software Definition [1] and freedom 0 more or less maps to criteria 5 and 6.

The mainstream FOSS licenses (GPL, BSD, Apache2, etc.) are all included both in the official list of open source licenses [2] and the official list of free software licenses [3], so these licenses are both open source licenses and free software licenses. These lists might have some minor differences, but they share a substantial subset and the definitions broadly speaking define the same thing.

[0] https://opensource.org/osd/

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

[2] https://opensource.org/licenses/

[3] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

[toyg]

You can't interpret things like these out of context.

OSS as a term was created at a time when free software, as defined by GNU, was effectively becoming the de-facto standard for collaborative efforts on the internet. Yes, MIT and BSD were around (barely, in the BSD case), but the rising star was Linux and Linux (and the software built on it - GTK, gimp, etc) was GPL.

The industry needed a way to get on the action without touching the "communist" GPL, and that's why ESR's definition of "Open Source" was endorsed. Obviously they coopted all the existing bits they were ok with (i.e. all the ones that did not impose any extra burden on companies), that's why the definitions overlap substantially; but they are not the same thing. If they were, there would not have been any need to create a new definition for it.

[ptx]

Out of context? I provided plenty of context if you care to follow the links I posted.

The distinction between copyleft and non-copyleft licenses, e.g. GPL and BSD, is different from the distinction between open source and free software, which is mainly ideological. The GPL is a copyleft license but also an open source license, as you can see on the OSI website.

For maximum context, here is a quote from the board meeting minutes [0] where the OSI approved the Free Software Foundation's copyleft GPL license as an open source license in accordance with the Open Source Definition: "The Open Source Initiative is pleased to announce that, based on broad review and acceptance by both the Board and the community, it has confirmed that GPLv3 and LGPLv3 both conform to the Open Source Definition."

[0] https://opensource.org/meeting-minutes/minutes20070905/

[toyg]

Yes, because OSS was meant to be a superset of projects including Free Software, so that stuff that did not fit the Free Software definition could still be considered ideologically acceptable. Do I really have to draw a diagram...?

[ptx]

Such as what stuff? Draw a diagram if you prefer, but a few examples of these nefarious non-free licenses promoted by the OSI would be sufficient.

[toyg]

Crap like Sun's CDDL and MPL were endorsed by OSI although they were developed explicitly in opposition to the GPL. Yeah, they might be nominally "free", but their aim was fairly nefarious at the time. OSI endorses all sorts of licenses that are free in name only.

[ptx]

OK, so you're saying that Open Source is "not the same thing" as Free Software and there was a "need to create a new definition for it" to include "stuff that did not fit the Free Software definition". You give the CDDL and the MPL as examples of such stuff.

But if you take a look at the Free Software Foundation's list [0] of Free Software licenses, you will see that it lists both the CDDL and the MPL as Free Software according to the Free Software Definition.

So why should a new definition have been needed to allow these licenses when they are already allowed by the old definition? Maybe you could supply some of that context you were talking about?

[0] https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html

[znpy]

> The industry needed a way to get on the action without touching the "communist" GPL, and that's why ESR's definition of "Open Source" was endorsed.

which against, doesn't really makes sense.

Stallman has repeated over and over that the Free Software movement is not about communism (despite what communist people like to say).

Most likely, the industry needed a way to get people to submit improvements and patches (essentially doing Development, QA and support) for free without having to give a way the right to sell proprietary services.