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by colonelpopcorn 994 days ago
Pretty sure the under class is by design. Anyone who's ever used the phrase "real job" believes in the necessary existence of an under class.
2 comments

Not at all, there a jobs that are good for students and other low skill/low experience workers... you can walk in and generate value, the phrase real job as I've heard it means career where with experience the amount of value increases.
What do you call a low experience worker, who only has access to jobs that pay insufficient to the cost of living? Underclass works fine for me. It seems like you do agree, you just either don't see that you do, or aren't honest enough to admit what the agreement means for the people who work these jobs. Their status as students or "other low skill" is irrelevant to their need to pay for food, housing, transport, healthcare etc.
It’s totally relevant because someone in their 20s might be able to live with their parents, or has multiple roommates etc. The amount of money that they need is much less than that of someone more established.

It is a really interesting contrast though, that in Amsterdam where I now live (and many other parts of Europe), this divide doesn’t exist as strongly.

We have a perfectly happy and healthy ~40 year old woman come to the office to tend to the plants, and she’s paid a totally fair livable wage. The guy who works at the cafeteria for the office complex supports his family in that job (and I’ve talked to him about it). Same with many other “low skill” workers that I talk to.

Baristas at a cafe seem to still be mostly 20 year olds, but maybe a bit less so than in the US

This used to be the case in the United States. As recently as the 70s blue collar laborers owned homes, had families and their wife stayed at home with the kids. The idea that you need two mid to high level incomes to afford a house is very new.
And this still exists in the USA - it's just much MUCH less common in the high-cost areas, for obvious reasons.
And then people wonder why none of us are having families. You’re too poor in your 20s, then you aren’t able to biologically by the time you’re in your 40s. But by then everyone in their 40s has the “I’ve got mine” mentality so nothing changes.

We live in the stupidest timeline.

I don't wonder why people aren't having families because the reason is obviously that they don't want to.

It's not because things are worse now than ever in human history; that's pure rationalization/delusion/cope.

I believe a more accurate description is that people are choosing not to have children in the current environment; maybe something in the environment is detected as unsuitable for children, since human biology hasn’t changed but the birth rate has gone down.

If this kind of birthdate collapse happened in other organized animal societies we’d have lots of news pointing to specific environmental hazards, like that insecticide and bird eggs.

People always do things "because they want to" - even if forced to do it at gunpoint (they could choose to die, of course).

Things on many metrics are likely better now than any point in human history, but people's perceptions of that are way off.

But it doesn't change that there are people who would like to start a family and feel they can't. Obviously they can, as the mechanics of it all hasn't changed in the last million years, but they choose not to.

Are you arguing that people in their 20s should not be able to start families?
Absolutely not! Just that it’s more likely for someone to be able to take a job like that without becoming homeless or hungry, since there are a decent amount of young people who don’t need a lot.

I was mostly just trying to give a steel-man for the previous person’s thoughts before sharing my bit of info. Because it’s a complex issue and I don’t want to dismiss anyone acting in good faith.

The other part of my comment was, I thought, the more interesting part. About how this weird “able to support a family” vs “not” dichotomy seems to be a US problem that hasn’t hit Europe.

The Netherlands does have a more complex minimum wage law though, which starts low for a 15-year-old, and gets progressively higher until you’re a young adult (at 21) [0]. And it also has a clause that if you’re supporting yourself, then the highest level minimum wage applies regardless of age. I think that helps resolve the issue I mentioned above.

[0] https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/amount-of-the-...

> someone in their 20s might be able to live with their parents

They also might not? Why are we structuring access to fundamental needs around this assumption?

I replied above to someone else about this same thing — you might be interested in that reply!
Maybe, but someone once told me that I don't have a "real job" because I sit at a desk all day. And their perception didn't change when I told them I have a standing desk.
Every job that I feel is "beneath me" is a fake job.

Of course the job I do is by definition a "real job", as is any job I'd like to do.

Any job that is icky and I don't want to do is also a real job, of course. Even if paid less than fake ones.

(heh above is pretty accurate for most people, though they won't admit it).