[tombert]

If they are willing to retroactively change the TOS once, why wouldn't they do it again once the smoke has settled?

I don't make games, I have nothing at stake in this fight, but this just feels like PR damage control and to be completely honest, I don't think most software engineers are so absolutely dependent on (proper noun) Unity to risk this company doing shady stuff again, and I suspect this entire ordeal will work as great marketing for engines like Unreal.

A part of me thinks that the CEO (and all the other executive morons who decided to make the installation fee) was sitting there thinking "what are they going to do? Move to Godot?", but if that was their line of thinking, and if they seriously did not think they were competing with Unreal, then I really do not see what business they have being multimillionaires in charge of any kind of decision-making process.

[gumballindie]

> A part of me thinks that the CEO (and all the other executive morons who decided to make the installation fee) was sitting there thinking "what are they going to do? Move to Godot?"

Their CEO gives me the impression of a rich but unsophisticated mba type who can only deliver revenue growth by raising prices. I doubt he even thought about captive customers and lack of what he might have thought alternative engines, let along open source and free.

He’s the type that thinks open source is maybe a toy.

I knew he was a stink when i read that he ordered unity employees back to offices. He thought he can order customers a new fee. He confirmed my suspicion. A shame that we as a society and industry allow these zeroes to end up leading tech companies.

[DonHopkins]

I know John Riccitiello from when I worked at Maxis/EA on The Sims last century, and when he was involved with investing in Will Wright's Stupid Fun Club, and later when he was involved as CEO of EA in open sourcing SimCity for the One Laptop Per Child. We (including Eben Moglen, Free Software Foundation general counsel) explained to him why EA should open source the original SimCity source code under GPL-3, and what open source software and GPL-3 mean, and he approved the deal, and I gave him credit and positive feedback and sincerely thanked him. And we earned EA a lot of good publicity during a time when they were considered one of the worst companies in the world.

EA Donates Original City-Building Game, SimCity, to ''One Laptop per Child'' Initiative:

https://ir.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2007/...

OLCP EA Contract:

https://donhopkins.com/home/olpc-ea-contract.pdf

And I've given him credit for doing that here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23251414

When Unity joined the Blender development fund as a Patron member while Riccitiello was CEO of Unity, I also gave him positive feedback and sincerely thanked him again, telling him how important Blender is to Unity game developers, and how important it is for them to work well together.

Unity Joins the Blender Development Fund as a Patron Member:

https://www.blender.org/press/unity-joins-the-blender-develo...

I recommended he watch Ton Roosendaal's excellent "Money doesn't interest me" interview, in which he does not hold back on his feelings about Autodesk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJEWOTZnFeg

And also this video of Ton getting hit by a ceiling tile during a talk. (Presumably perpetrated by Autodesk!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJwG-qt-sgk

Then when Joe Biden endorsed Unity three times in his inaugural address, I asked Riccitiello how much Unity paid for that product placement, but he wouldn't tell me:

>"With Unity we can do great things, important things!"

>"For without Unity, there is no peace, only bitterness and fury."

>"And Unity is the path forward."

>-Joe Biden's inaugural address.

Then after Unity recently announced they're pulling the rug out from under their developers, I posted to Riccitiello's Facebook page a screen snapshot of the github star ranking table showing that Godot suddenly had a 535.6% increase in stars, and sincerely thanked him again, writing "Thank you for your substantial contribution to open source gaming engines, at the expense of your own company!"

So I'm pretty sure he's aware of open source software, but I don't think he actually meant to benefit the Godot project so much at the expense of Unity.

The Godot folks, who have greatly benefited from this fiasco through no fault of their own, immediately condemned the death threat that somebody (who turned out to be a Unity employee) posted, which caused Unity to cancel an event and close their office.

https://twitter.com/godotengine/status/1702413121086705951

>Godot Engine @godotengine

>We extend our sincere solidarity and support to the Unity workers. The recent reactions have left us profoundly disappointed. Threats of violence should have no place in the gamedev community.

The truth behind the Unity "Death Threats":

https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16j21jg/the_truth_...

>Update: San Francisco police told Polygon that officers responded to Unity’s San Francisco office “regarding a threats incident.” A “reporting party” told police that “an employee made a threat towards his employer using social media.” The employee that made the threat works in an office outside of California, according to the police statement.

Reddit thread from 8 years ago, with recent posts:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Unity3D/comments/3cxogb/til_unity_c...

TIL Unity CEO John Riccitiello was former CEO of EA. He saved EA from declining profits by sellings games EA made online (Origin) rather than physical packages and raising game quality. Also, he's barely known for being CEO at Unity Technologies.

>drakfyre 8 yr. ago

>I am honestly really pleased the hate has died down. Riccitiello is a pretty damn good CEO and Unity's former CEO (though a SUPER COOL dude) really didn't have the practice nor want to be a CEO of such a rapidly expanding company.

>rvc3m8 8 days ago

>now, that didn't age well, did it? ;)

>drakfyre 7 days ago

>No, no it did not, not at all...

[gumballindie]

Interesting. What i fail to understand though is how on earth he could have approved or thought that this may be a good move. I find it hilariously childish. But glad it ignited the idea of open source in game development - hope the industry figures out how to also monetise it.

[PoignardAzur]

This is such a weird post. Why the Biden mention?

[DonHopkins]

Because Biden endorsed Unity so many times in his inaugural address. It was a such refreshing departure and contrast from Trump's obsession with Unreal lies and propoganda.

The 41 most Unreal Donald Trump quotes of 2018:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/20/politics/trump-lines-of-t...

JANUARY 20, 2021: A National Day of Unity

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-action...

President Joe Biden 2021 Inaugural Address:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlbyOeMCL0g

Inaugural Address by President Joseph R. Biden, Jr.:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...

To overcome these challenges – to restore the soul and to secure the future of America – requires more than words.

It requires that most elusive of things in a democracy:

Unity.

Unity.

With Unity we can do great things. Important things.

I know speaking of Unity can sound to some like a foolish fantasy.

History, faith, and reason show the way, the way of Unity.

For without Unity, there is no peace, only bitterness and fury.

This is our historic moment of crisis and challenge, and Unity is the path forward.

And together, we shall write an American story of hope, not fear.

Of Unity, not division.

[jimmywetnips]

i just feel like there needed to be a good transition from the serious beginning about the riticiello to the meme at the end. Like it was too jarring to suddenly do the 180 to the presidential speech.

[DonHopkins]

It was in chronological order, from my Facebook Messenger chats with him. Not everything we discussed was serious, sorry to confuse you! How is literally quoting the President of the United State's Inaugural Address a "meme"?

Did you watch the video of Autodesk attacking Ton Roosendaal with falling ceiling plaster? (I didn't make that part up: It happened just after Ton mentioned Autodesk, so he immediately joked: "That was Autodesk!")

Ton Roosendaal gets hit by ceiling at Blender Conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJwG-qt-sgk

>During his Blender Foundation/Institute panel, Ton Roosendaal gets almost hit in the head by a piece of plaster falling from the ceiling of the conference center.

[jimbob45]

"What are they going to do? Move to Godot?"

I'm a casual observer in this space. Is Unreal not a viable alternative?

[tombert]

That's my point, I think it is! The fact that the Unity executives didn't consider that people will jump ship to Unreal baffles me.

[rhtgrg]

> If they are willing to retroactively change the TOS once, why wouldn't they do it again once the smoke has settled?

I haven't seen any evidence they did that, it's mostly been FUD from Godot supporters. The initial communication was messy, but where are actual TOS changes that are being touted so loudly?

https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service

https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service-legacy

[tombert]

I have no skin in this game, but I read this article: https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/09/14/unity-license-terms...

ETA:

You updated your post with the TOS, but from what I read the concern was that the new TOS said it applied to any new distribution of the Unity Runtime, without specifying versions and the like.

[rhtgrg]

I have never seen a Unity TOS that specified versions as seen in the screenshot of the link you shared. Where did they get that screenshot from? They need to share their source. For all we know this is a change from 2020 (latest version referred to in their screenshot).

In which case I think you will agree that is plenty of notice and most likely unrelated to be maliciously related to what's being announced now. They've even walked back the applicability to old versions as seen in GP.

[wolrah]

> I have never seen a Unity TOS that specified versions as seen in the screenshot of the link you shared.

You mean this screenshot, right? https://gameworldobserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/uni...

Right here: https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service/software-legacy

Scroll down about 80% of the page to section 8.

[tombert]

Well Unity is being accused of some dishonesty with updating things and not disclosing it [1]. If that's true, then it's possible that it's been somewhat purged to make themselves look better.

That said, that's a big "if", I'm just regurgitating what I read in news articles.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37615183

[rhtgrg]

Jan '22 TOS does not have such a clause either (from archive.org):

https://web.archive.org/web/20220716041837/https://unity.com...

At this point I'm pretty sure this is a dishonest attempt to dig up a 2020 change (if this clause even ever existed, which I've seen zero proof of) and correlate it to a 2023 announcement as if these things were done in tandem.

Downvote me all you want. I don't think Godot et al will survive with these scummy tactics.

[tombert]

I seriously doubt this is some conspiracy from the Godot team, even if it's dishonest. I think people are probably drawing some correlations as a response to an announcement that they don't like, and then saying "Godot doesn't have this bullshit because it's open source". I don't think the Godot team is engaging in "scummy tactics" explicitly.

ETA:

Also, if you're going to edit your responses after you post them, I recommend using the `delay` feature in your HN settings, or adding an addendum section like I'm doing here, as it's a little unfair to people responding to you to make undisclosed changes so it looks like people responding to you aren't responding to all your points. I'm not saying you're being dishonest, I'm just saying that it feels a little unfair to responders.

[danShumway]

The Jan 22 TOS you link to includes this section:

> Notwithstanding this Section 1.4, any modification of the Unity Software Additional Terms is subject to Section 8 of the Unity Software Additional Terms.

If you click on the "Unity Software Additional Terms" link within that clause, it will take you to the July 2022 snapshot of those terms in the Internet Archive (https://web.archive.org/web/20220716082334/https://unity.com...). Section 8 reads:

> Unity may update these Unity Software Additional Terms at any time for any reason and without notice (the “Updated Terms”) and those Updated Terms will apply to the most recent current-year version of the Unity Software, provided that, if the Updated Terms adversely impact your rights, you may elect to continue to use any current-year versions of the Unity Software (e.g., 2018.x and 2018.y and any Long Term Supported (LTS) versions for that current-year release) according to the terms that applied just prior to the Updated Terms (the “Prior Terms”). [etc...]

As of March 2023, those terms were still present in the TOS (https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com...), moved to section 6 (Modifications to these Software Terms and Long-Term Supported versions).

The terms disappear in the May 2023 snapshot (https://web.archive.org/web/20230528084511/https://unity.com...), which states that the last update to the TOS was April 3rd, 2023, which is fully consistent with all of the reporting about this change.

Not only is there no conspiracy from Godot, the reporting is correct. The TOS was modified between March/May of 2023 to remove the reported clause and the Internet Archive proves it.

[danShumway]

I commented similarly below, but see the March 2023 snapshot at https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com... Section 6 (Modifications to these Software Terms and Long-Term Supported versions).

If you go to the next snapshot (https://web.archive.org/web/20230413210637/https://unity.com...), Section 6 will be missing and you'll see the following header at the top of the TOS:

> Last updated: April 3, 2023

> What’s changed: We have posted an update to our Unity Editor Software Terms to, among other things, provide for our Industry Offering. We’ve also updated other sections, including those relating to data collection and modification of terms.

Interestingly, their linked FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20230605071610/https://unity.com...) provides no mention of the fact that they've removed the clause. I can't know what was going through Unity executives' heads when that FAQ was written, but they apparently didn't think it important to draw attention or specifically notify users about that revocation of their rights.

[imtringued]

Why would "Godot supporters" care about what Unity is doing? It's not like they are on payroll and more users means more bug reports and feature requests for the maintainers without necessarily gaining more capacity to implement them. An open source project doesn't need an exodus of users from another project, it needs to get parity with its competitors and then quietly take over the market with little resistance.