[morelisp]

I have a formal CS education, although I've hired a bunch of people without. I'm just saying, a Harvard CS degree tells me either you're extremely bad with money, or you (or your parents) are more interested in social signalling than a thorough education.

You also seem to be missing that the content associated with the certificate can be fine, but the validation process broken enough that the certificate per se (and therefore listing it on a resume) is worthless.

(I prefer to hire based primarily on work samples or a take-home project.)

[meneer_oke]

Well the context is online courses from Harvard, MIT. Such as the CS50 course referenced by many even in this thread. Those courses are free, there is a option for a certification for around 150 dollar.

People actually learn the basics of CS and foundational knowledge in those courses. And how to use git and GitHub.

I never stated that those certs, or courses alone would be enough. This comment thread started because someone called it anti-signal. Listing anything on a Resume is never pointless, it tells us something about the potential hire.

Courses like the one mentioned are open, which means if you wanted to test that knowledge you could, easily.

That could tell you so much about the potential hire:

* Did they actually do the course.

* Did they retain the information.

* Did they understood the material.

* How did they use the information, in their own projects or clients.

From those answers you would even be able to learn more about their seniority level.

The point is, "anti-signals" is just not everywhere the case. It might be for some, sure. But how many of those would like to see formal CS education?

Seems that even you are more on the side of actual code examples. And in order to create great code, allot of deep knowledge is needed. Which those courses provide.

[morelisp]

> Listing anything on a Resume is never pointless

Sorry, but you have absolutely wrong ideas about resumes, how they are read, and what information they convey. Both descriptively and normatively.

> Courses like the one mentioned are open, which means if you wanted to test that knowledge you could, easily.

If I have to test anything, I'm going to test the actual job skills. But actually the point of a degree/certification/whatever on a resume is to show me that someone else already did the testing so I don't have to spend time doing it. Conversely, if I have to test it again, it's pointless to put on a resume.

[meneer_oke]

I've been hiring devs at multiple companies.

It seems you are misunderstanding me again, If someone puts something on resume. It's a signalling they think it's important. And in order asses candidates on their strengths, we use the resume.

If you are worried that they are missing the information from the course, I gave how it's actually great tool to asses candidate.

You also thinking that can outsource in some sense if developer will workout at the work place you are hiring for. This is a mistake.

Instead of making blanket statements, and dismissing people on frivolous things. Like going to ivy league universities or having certificate.

It's better to test the person, to get the know more about the strengths and weaknesses.

A resume is just window into the candidate thinking process.

-edit It's clear from your comments you're not aware of the great work at Harvard with CS50 course.

[jmye]

Are you saying a Harvard CS degree isn’t a thorough education? Or are you assuming that everyone at Harvard pays full freight?

I don’t get the elitism or why you think someone with a degree from a specific school is inherently stupid. That’s as weird as refusing to hire non-formally educated people.

[morelisp]

I think you can get a better formal CS education than Harvard for a fraction of the price at two dozen places, probably including at least one state school you have access to.

Harvard is good for signalling, traditional liberal arts, and pre-law (but, I repeat myself). It's not a very good teaching university overall, and especially not in CS.

[JambalayaJim]

If you don’t have a high regard for the Harvard CS curriculum, it’s reasonable enough to disqualify people on that basis.

That said, I think you’re completely out of touch with how 18 year olds choose universities. It can be as simple as a friend of theirs is also attending, or the school is close to a parent’s home, or they were actually in a liberal arts program before they switched into CS.

Sometimes as you implied, it’s their parents making that decision for them.

There’s no point in holding the cost of a student’s education over them, especially as you don’t know even how much they paid.

[meneer_oke]

> If you don’t have a high regard for the Harvard CS curriculum, it’s reasonable enough to disqualify people on that basis.

It's not reasonable, those statements are liability for you and the company you represent. Hiring laws are quite strict of discrimination.

[JambalayaJim]

Is that discrimination? To prefer candidates from one university over another?

[morelisp]

Assuming you mean strictly in the hiring/legal sense, it is absolutely not.

[morelisp]

Yeah, sure, spare a tear for all the kids who accidentally ended up at Harvard.

[JambalayaJim]

The point of my comment wasn’t “Harvard kids are discriminated against”, the point is that your hiring logic doesn’t make sense.