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by verandaguy 1000 days ago
I formerly worked for a somewhat-older mainstream consumer VPN provider for a few years, to the extent that you can take my word for it, this is not industry-standard practice at least as far as the provider is able to control it.

Commercial VPNs typically run on rental servers -- usually a mix of the major cloud providers and smaller hosting providers -- and in my former company's case, using dedicated hosting (bare metal where available). Steps were taken to restrict access for physical actors, but ultimately, the mantra's always that physical access basically guarantees data access on a long enough timeline if you assume there's a bad actor in the mix.

That said, to the best of my memory, there were no indications of this kind of data siphoning happening without our knowledge, and we absolutely didn't take part in it ourselves knowingly. Occasional requests would come in from various international law enforcement orgs, and every time they'd be replied to with a message about how we don't store user records (which was a truthful reply AFAIK).

The biggest challenge for us was competing with some of the newer actors in the space, taking advantage of deceptive marketing and engaging in (IMO) unethical business practices for the sector:

- Claims of "no logging," even backed up by audits, are only ever point-in-time measurements, and may not reflect reality if the VPN provider approaches the auditors in bad faith (say, with a sanitized code base); a good auditor in my experience will refuse to make this claim in the report

- Claims about having the corporate HQ in one country making it immune from the laws of countries they operate servers in (this is deceptive marketing; failure to comply with laws will get you shut down, and at my old employer we'd make calls about whether to just drop our server presence in a country entirely in response to local laws and political happenings)

- Commercial resale of user data is (allegedly) rampant among many of the newer providers you see constantly plugged on Youtube. This isn't helped by the massive consolidation of the VPN market under just 2 or 3 holding companies.

I won't name names for the companies I mentioned above, but my recommendation is to adjust your threat model from "nation-state level surveillance" to "commercial data resale just like every other web service."

As far as data collection went for my old company: we collected system metrics like resource usage over time, and kept minimal sanitized logs to help diagnose any production issues that'd come up -- basically the absolute minimum amount of data we needed to keep the service operating smoothly. I have every reason to believe this is an industry norm, since otherwise development and troubleshooting would be nearly impossible.

Anyway, there's also the looming "threat" (lol) of HTTPS and encrypted DNS proliferation and improvement making the core use case for commercial VPNs obsolete. I think anyone who's spent a bit of time in that industry realizes that the business model isn't long for this earth as a result, so I suspect many are trying to milk the industry for all it's worth. Personally, I'm all for HTTPS and encrypted DNS proliferation, and I'm also hoping more and more commercial public networks start using virtual private subnets and other device isolation features to make it even harder to abuse coffee shop Wi-Fi.

2 comments

> Anyway, there's also the looming "threat" (lol) of HTTPS and encrypted DNS proliferation and improvement making the core use case for commercial VPNs obsolete

For a lot of people the core use case is accessing Netflix in a different country!

I'm constantly amazed VPNs get away with advertising that, more specifically the ones that advertise lower prices for subscriptions/products. I guess Netflix themselves won't really care if you switch regions for different shows and might write off discounted subscriptions as alternative to piracy, but the companies that license content by region don't care?
This is also true and shockingly difficult to do reliably.
If you have to pay for safe, encrypted DNS, how is that substantially different than using a VPN? Still need an external service.
I'm not sure how this relates to the parent comment, but there are free encrypted DNS services out there, though the same can't be said for encrypted and anonymous ones (which is, frankly, a hard problem to solve, realistically speaking).

With encrypted DNS you're just shifting the burden of data privacy away from the local network to the DNS operator. How you determine which operators to trust will probably vary from person to person.

Anyway, the major difference here would be that a VPN will encrypt all traffic in a tunnel, from your DNS requests to your actual followup web requests. On the flipside, you may use encrypted DNS to look up records for a domain that serves content over an unencrypted connection.

You can use dns over https over tor(dohot)[1]. Safer than a vpn if you dont mind your isp knowing you go to tor. 1.https://github.com/alecmuffett/dohot
I always assumes the core usw case was piracy
The other argument is to frustrate network correlation analysis. Many VPN providers have an internal high-bandwidth network (virtual or otherwise); you can send a packet to $VPN_SERVER_X, it sends it to $VPN_SERVER_Y possibly via other intermediate servers, and $VPN_SERVER_Y then forwards it on to your destination.

If you live in a country with detailed data retention laws, this massively changes the shape of the graph: rather than your computer connecting via HTTPS to lots of other IP addresses, it only connects to one, which a large number of other customers do too. The argument then goes that there's enough inherent jitter and generic "chaff" on the internal network to make it very hard to deterministically work out if one of your packets going in to a popular service is the same as that coming out at any moment in time; the greater the traffic of the network and the provider the better the statistical protection becomes as the packets become indistinguishable.

This, and the fact that it represents a giant "no thanks" to dragnet surveillance, is arguably a good reason to just put a VPN on your router (as many people do).