[satvikpendem]

Thanks for the reply, Rich. It seems that, given a large enough codebase, that sort of spaghetti mess will emerge on its own, as not everyone will be so thorough. Granted, I haven't used runes and based on your blog post here, I'm not reading where it would prevent such headaches as there's not much mention of that there, so I don't know exactly how it'd work, but just based on my experience using things like Vue and Knockout in the past, it wasn't too clean.

I was just mentioning in another comment how Rust has a similar problem where, as in C, you can mutate variables via pointers anywhere in the codebase, but Rust counters that by having a borrow checker that explicitly tracks the changes made and makes sure that only one user can modify a variable at any one time. An analogous concept might be quite interesting to implement in all these signal based frameworks as well.

[ttfkam]

> An analogous concept might be quite interesting to implement in all these signal based frameworks as well.

Which is what Svelte 5 is doing with its compiler.

> […] given a large enough codebase, that sort of spaghetti mess will emerge on its own, as not everyone will be so thorough.

LOL! You've just described React projects! Yes, of course you and your team are wonderful and have all the FP experience, so obviously this isn't an issue for YOU.

Most React codebases however turn into big balls of mud. Enormous balls of useMemo-y, useEffect-y, re-render the world-y, spaghettified mud without even any compiler-enabled guardrails that get re-written every 18-24 months but "this time we'll do it right."

[jakelazaroff]

I think the true lesson here is that if you fundamentally dislike a programming paradigm, then everything written in it looks like a big ball of mud.

[ttfkam]

That's completely true. A concede the point.

[satvikpendem]

Based on your profile and comments, it seems you have some particular grudge against React, so I'm not sure I can convince you of anything React related that you have not already convinced yourself of. Nevertheless, I (nor you, it seems) have not used Svelte 5 yet so I cannot judge, just that based on my, yes, personal experience, 2 way data binding based frameworks create messes. Even though you can shoot yourself in the foot in any language or framework, some are simply better at preventing it, such as C versus Rust, as I analogized.

[kikimora]

I’m not expert in Svelte or React and have been following your conversation. You stress the point that two-way data binding creates mess. I tend to agree since I did my share of desktop programming long time ago. However, I don’t see how React solves the problem fundamentally. When you combine React with Redux or hooks IMHO you get exactly the same thing. The big difference is syntax that makes it easier to reason how view would re-render in response to change. But in a large enough project I can see how this became less and less true as distant modification trigger cascades of model updates/reducers/hooks and result in an unexpected behavior.