[bradleyishungry]

Activists have said for years (decades even) that more training does not work. There is very little evidence that training in the way that some politicians have called for affects policing at all. Cop City training in particular is not even that, its not for bias training or anything, it’s very much more akin to military training.

Activists goals have always been for redirecting some police funding to education, community outreach, different divisions for different problems, etc. There are some that push for abolition but the overall goal of those who actually have been doing it for years has been to address the underlying problems and not to throw more money at an armed force with immunity.

[rayiner]

I think American cops are trigger happy, but don’t throw around assertions about “underlying problems” without evidence. Lots of places that don’t have a fraction of the “education,” etc., of the Atlanta metro area, and also have cops that are trigger happy as fuck, don’t have the same level of disruption in the social order. Watch a Bollywood cop movie sometime—some of the scenes of “good cops” killing “bad guys” without due process would make a Republican uneasy. Nonetheless, Atlanta has a homicide rate 5-10 times higher than Delhi, India. Hell, the homicide rate in some parts of America are higher than the death rates of American soldiers during the Iraq war: https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/parts-of-chicago-more-da...

American social disorder is a unique phenomenon that cannot be waved away as being caused by poverty, lack of education, etc. And frankly it’s kind of offensive to make that comparison. Poor, uneducated people around the world manage to maintain more orderly communities than Americans who are vastly more privileged and affluent in comparison.

[dctoedt]

> Nonetheless, Atlanta has a homicide rate 5-10 times higher than Delhi ....

Estimated number of civilian firearms per 100 people:

- U.S.: 120.5

- India: 5.3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

[rayiner]

In Atlanta, about 35-40% of households own a firearm: https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/6/3/189. In Idaho it’s 60% https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/gun-ownership-rates-by-stat....

Despite having more guns, Idaho has a homicide rate of 2.2 per 100,000, which is only a little higher than Belgium, and about the same as Canada, and a little lower than India.

By contrast, Puerto Rico had fewer guns than India, but a homicide rate of 19 per 100,000, more than six times higher than India. Disarmed Puerto Rico has a homicide rate eight times higher than heavily armed Idaho.

Clinging to the belief that it’s guns rather than social factors is just willful denial.

[dctoedt]

Population density per square mile:

- Idaho: 22.3 (44th out of 50 states) [0]

- Puerto Rico: 952 [1]

- India: 1,244 [2]

[0] https://www.gethealthy.dhw.idaho.gov/overview-of-idaho

[1] https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/puerto-rico-p...

[2] https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/india-populat...

[rayiner]

Homicide rate doesn’t actually have much to do with population density. Boise has a population density of 2,800 per square mile and similar homicide rate to the state as a whole. Urban Boise is actually slightly denser than urban San Juan, Puerto Rico, while being heavily armed and far safer. Boise is also similarly dense to Atlanta while being much safer.

[dctoedt]

> Clinging to the belief that it’s guns rather than social factors is just willful denial.

That's a false dichotomy — sure, social factors play an important role, but it's a multi-variate phenomenon, and you seem to want to deny that gun-ownership rates have anything to do with it.

[rayiner]

You haven’t presented any evidence that guns are a major factor after adjusting for social factors. The US also has the highest rates of fatherless households in the world, while India has one of the lowest. Maybe that’s the reason for the difference in homicide rates.

[dctoedt]

“The” driving factor? Are we in agreement that it’s a factor?

[onetimeusename]

The US is kind of an outlier in gun ownership. What should we take away from this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...

Estimated number of civilian firearms per 100 people and gun deaths per 100000:

- El Salvador: 5.8, 78.52

- Brazil: 8.6, 23.93

- Colombia: 10.10, 20.38

- U.S.: 120.5, 12.21

- Mexico: 15, 11.55

If anything it seems like proximity to cartels is the most likely predictor of gun homicide rates

Meanwhile Switzerland has 27.6 guns per 100 civilians and 2.64 gun homicides per 100,000. So not sure what to conclude about gun ownership and homicides. Note that gun deaths not equal to gun homicides since deaths includes suicide and the CDC reports these items combined. If you wanted to discuss gun suicides that's fine but note this was about homicide.

[dctoedt]

> Meanwhile Switzerland has 27.6 guns per 100 civilians and 2.64 gun homicides per 100,000. So not sure what to conclude about gun ownership and homicides.

Another data point: Switzerland has strict gun laws that mostly ban the kind of military-grade firearms we see used in mass murders in the U.S. (and yes, some Latin American countries), and smaller guns require permits. [0]

More: "Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership — here's why it doesn't have mass shootings ... Unlike the US, Switzerland has mandatory military service for men. The government gives all men between the ages of 18 and 34 deemed 'fit for service' a pistol or a rifle and training on how to use them. After they've finished their service, the men can typically buy and keep their service weapons, but they have to get a permit for them." [1]

[0] https://www.ch.ch/en/safety-and-justice/owning-a-weapon-in-s... (scan down for a useful chart)

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/switzerland-gun-laws-rates-o...

[xyzzyz]

> Switzerland has strict gun laws that mostly ban the kind of military-grade firearms we see used in mass murders in the U.S.

This is completely, verifiably false. It even contradicts the rest of your comment, where you quote:

> After they've finished their service, the men can typically buy and keep their service weapons

The “service weapon” here means literally the one that they used in military, which, as I presume, is “military grade”.

[dctoedt]

You must have overlooked the word "mostly" in my comment.

The first link in my post is to an official Swiss government site. If you want to quibble about what constitutes a "military-grade" firearm, that's certainly your privilege.

[Kretinsky]

Is it working? San Francisco (and other cities) has been running such "experiment" and clearly it's becoming a frightening drug hot spot (among other problems).

[matchbok]

Which is all completely untrue. Police in America are very untrained compared to other countries. The standards to be a cop are too low.

This is just a bunch of middle class "defund" people with little else going on.

[Cupertino95014]

.. and raising the "standards" -- that's going to attract more applicants? Explain how that would work.