[michael_dorfman]

> But if a person accepts the Church Turing Thesis, then the human brain is not doing any computation that can't be modeled by a Turing Machine. In fact, the brain is at least a Turing Machine. Gödel's limitations will apply to it.

That's not the case. If one accepts the Church Turing Thesis, then those functions the brain performs on effectively calculable functions can be performed on a Turing Machine. The brain is at least a Turing Machine, but may be greatly more than one, and Gödel's limitations will only apply to that portion doing calculations. The brain may very well be doing a great deal more than simple computation.

Thus, when you write I argue that the mind is a program that runs on that Turing machine, you're leaping off into wild speculation.

[Dn_Ab]

Excellent point and I suspected someone would call me out on this. Notice that I also said at least a Turing Machine. As I respond to another comment in this thread, implicit in my statement is the belief that the universe is calculable on a Turing Machine. I do not believe this is wild speculation. These ideas are not simple for me at least so I will be careful:

If the universe is not calculable on a Turing machine then some physical processes including those going on in the brain are not computations but can only be expressed using superrecursive algorithms. If those processes in the brain were computations then the human brain would be a hypercomputer. I do not believe in the existence of that latter. This opens the possibility that even if the brain operates via non computable means, its behaviour could be fully captured by a Turing Machine. I also think the theory that the universe has non computable things going on and the brain harnesses them in a non algorithmic way is more complex than the theory that the universe is merely Turing equivalent and so is the human brain.

My basis for this belief is the unrelated fact that there are some strict limitations in reality. Finite Speed Limit, 2nd Law, Maximum Force, Maximum Information per square meter, Quantum Indeterminacy; Compuational Indertermincancy of various facets: Diophantine, Church, Godel, Turing, Chaitin. Also the prudent belief that P <> NP and more importantly, lack of any evidence of Nature doing P in NP. Also: No Free Lunch in Search and its counter (okay no free lunch but the universe has structure exploitable by turing machines - see M Hutter). To me, saying the universe is just a turing machine fits this pattern.

Other patterns are the various links which occur in: physics, topology, logic and computation; the unifying power of category theory (e.g colgebras/algebras:objects---analysis as tagged unions---algebra), the link between physical and information entropy, the possibility of a Holographic Principle, the possibility of a discrete theory of quantum gravity, the relationship between a complex probability theory and Quantum Mechanics and the informational nature of QM. To me all these are very suggestive of a simple underlying nature which is informational and that digital physics may not be correct but it is in the right direction.