[reincoder]

Thousands of people live in a zip code, while hundreds and thousands of people live in a city. We are literally giving away that data for free through our API and database. The creepiness of IP geolocation is mostly a meme.

IP geolocation is mainly used in cybersecurity and marketing analytics. There are many ways to geolocate someone. I once came across a project that could estimate the country a user is from based on their writing style and grammar mistakes. For example, American people sometimes use "should of" instead of "should have". Knowing the geolocation of an IP address isn't super creepy. It's just how things work on the internet.

[chaps]

And you're literally advertising this project as being helpful for targeted ads. So it's pretty clear from the get go that what you consider creepy isn't what I consider creepy. And having done enough reidentification work to scare myself, "thousands of people" might as well be a couple dozen or less. I get why you're defensive and why you think it's not creepy, but calling it a "meme" is insultingingly dismissive.

Just because it's "how things work on the internet" doesn't make its mass collection right. Under the same logic, any side channel attack is just "how it works", and its abuse warrants no ethical question.

[reincoder]

I grok and understand your concern. I am not being defensive; I am just trying to provide an explanation. I really enjoy having conversations like this with developers as honestly and empathetically possible.

I apologize if I was rude in any way by saying the word "meme". I saw a sister comment and thought you were being sarcastic. There is a popular meme about "I have your IP address", so I thought you were referencing that. I have had conversations with many young people who were concerned about their IP address being leaked through a game server. Therefore, I try to use humor to alleviate their stress. However, I now realize that this situation was different, and I am sorry for not understanding that.

We provide a service that helps users keep their internet-connected services secure by providing IP metadata information. Are you being attacked by malicious actors? Use our free IP database to identify the location and ASN to block them. Do you want to restrict access to your service to certain regions? Do that for free with our services.

We have the most accurate data available, and yet we offer the most generous free tier. We provide a full accuracy IP database for free, without any range aggregation, and with daily updates and a commercially permissible license. We have built a community forum solely dedicated to answering users' questions. We invest in website tools and open-source tools, all with the goal of helping users maintain the security and functionality of their services.

We do have premium tier services, but if you use our free data as a foundation, you can always replicate those premium features to a reliable degree.

Our IP metadata information is being used in marketing and sales intelligence. It is the same data that you use to protect your internet connected devices, used by our customers to sell you something.

IP metadata information that we provide is a cornerstone of keeping the internet safe and accessible for everyone. That is how things just are. The deepweb is immune to IP meta data information, and that is why it is such a messy and chaotic place.

That is just truth of the internet. We are essential and we prefer to be open about our process and listen to our stakeholders (users + customers + non-users).

[chaps]

Thank you for the well thought out response. I disagree with just about everything you say, but I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate the validation that the use of a VPN is more important than it's ever been. As a professional courtesy: calling yourself "essential" is an enormous red flag and you might want to consider different phrasing.

[reincoder]

I should have used a different phrasing. :) I was reading an article about essential workers today, and that word popped up in my head when I wrote the comment.

It's good that you are using a VPN. I advocate for the usage of VPNs, and many VPN companies actually use our data to verify their server locations. In the VPN industry, VPN companies get their VPN servers from specialized hosting services that cater to dozens of VPN companies. You can check out the ASNs of the VPN IP addresses to find them.

- https://ipinfo.io/AS136787

- https://ipinfo.io/AS16247

VPN companies use our IP geolocation data to confirm the actual location of their servers. Let me tell you a fun story. One VPN company claimed to have a server in the Bahamas, but upon investigation, we discovered that the server was actually located in New York. It was a surprising find. Getting a server in the Bahamas is more challenging than getting one in NY. Just imagine users thinking their internet activity is immune to US jurisdiction because they are using a VPN service based in Bahamas but in fact it is actually located in NY. So, we might not be essential, but we are certainly very useful!

Thank you for the great conversation, dude. Appreciate it.

[wpietri]

For sure. When people work in any industry long enough, it's easy to stop thinking about the basics. E.g., a retail butcher thinks of his work very differently than a cow or a vegan does.

When people work in advertising, they mostly forget that the core of their business is for-profit manipulation of people with little or no regard for truth or the people concerned. But I personally think that's kinda creepy, and only getting more so as it goes from broad manipulation of millions via mass media down to thousands, hundreds, or single individuals.

[reincoder]

That is a good point. I will try to add some additional points to your statement.

In the context of a butcher and a vegan we are not either of them, we would be someone who sell salt. Salt as an ingredient is used by vegans, vegetarians, and meat eaters.

Salt is useful, and it is a complimentary item that makes the food taste better. But it is not a main feature of any dish. Salt plays an important and somewhat universally required item in any dish, but this is not the main feature of the dish you eat.

We are a data company. This IP metadata we sell is important to run a service that is connected to the internet. We are focused on serving cybersecurity as we are focused on other industries which includes adtech and sales intelligence.

IP metadata is used in threat intelligence, building firewalls, and attack surface management. On the other hand, when you are running a business at scale, you need to invest into understanding your target demographics. That is where largely adtech companies use our data. They need data and context to understand who their users are.

IP metadata helps to prevent cyberattacks to happen at a very early stage through firewall blocking. IP metadata, used through threat intelligence, can further strengthen firewalls to prevent future attacks. And IP metadata, can also be used in website personalization, adtech and sales intelligence etc.

We believe that every internet connected services for profit and non-profit alike, should have access to some security resilience, that is why we offer so many good quality free data.

[wpietri]

Huh. Ignoring the somewhat strained metaphor, you seem to be suggesting that you don't have moral responsibility for aiding the creepiness of professional manipulators because you also enable other things. I don't think that's true. But even if it were, it would only be so if it were a minimal, possibly negligible part of your business. What percentage of revenue would you say comes from adtech?

[reincoder]

I am happy to assist any business, organization or person to use our data. I enjoy talking with people and helping them with the technical and philosophical aspects of IP metadata.

If you progressively remove the layers of metadata associated with internet-connected devices one by one from GPS data (user-permitted action) → IP geolocation (IPinfo.io)→ IP address (ISP), and come to a system that is completely anonymous, you have the dark web.

The dark web represents an ecosystem that is completely devoid of ad tech because there is no identity, and the users are purely homogenous. The system itself is not widely adopted because internet participants need to feel secure from cyberattacks and harmful words. Traditional internet services do not exist there because they are getting bombarded with anonymous attacks, and they cannot provide any value to the customer because they don't even know who/what the user is.

IP metadata helps with running a business and serves as a way to protect yourself. There are organizations and users who actively utilize our services to check email headers, find the IP address, and lookup the IP metadata of those IP addresses. The data is utilized for recognizing spam and phishing emails. Conversely, our service is also used in adtech-driven cold emails and newsletter services.

IP metadata is required for a functioning and widely adopted internet.

[wpietri]

Look, I have no stake in this. I don't really care what you do. But if only for your own personal development, you should recognize what you're doing here in this conversation.

Can IP geolocation be used for positive things? Yes. We agree on that.

But it can also be used for things that can reasonably be seen as creepy and/or bad. Hopefully you can agree on that.

If you're going to sell your services to all comers, then you are going to be supporting and profiting from both good and bad things. And rather than spewing paragraphs about the good bits when somebody points out the bad bits, you should own what you're doing.

Think of it like selling guns. Are there legitimate defensive uses for them? Sure, ask anybody in Ukraine. But if a gun deal just focuses on how they "enjoy talking with people and helping them with the technical [...] aspects" while being "happy to assist "any business, organization, or person" to buy a gun, then they end up morally responsible for all the other uses guns have, too.

[chaps]

"I am happy to assist any business, organization or person to use our data."

..any? It makes me nervous that you actually mean that.