[consz]

It’s absolutely incredible to me how much animosity unions have in the US and how self defeating the typical programmers attitude is (maybe this is just selection bias for HN?) — and I say this as someone who’s definitely not a laborer. But if I was one, I would hope I wouldn’t vote against my own class interests like it appears developers often do.

Luckily, even speaking openly against my own interests here is zero risk, I feel Americans are too far gone in their position against unions for it to ever be an issue for me personally.

[idiotsecant]

Its a mix of crabs in a pot and 'f u I got mine' syndrome. I've largely given up trying to convince HN readers that tech work in the future will be the modern equivalent of bricklaying and will need its own protection for workers. Workers enjoy a high demand now and think that will always be the case but blacksmiths and telegraph operators thought so too.

[ryandrake]

Exactly. Crabs in the pot. "How dare you suggest lifting everyone up. Only I should be lifted up!" A lot of HN thinks they are Captains Of Industry who would somehow make less money in a union. The rest point to the least-pleasant union they can think of and declare "They are all necessarily like that one."

[booleandilemma]

And the best time to set such a union up is while we're in a strong position. Why wait until we're competing with AI?

[bluGill]

Unions have not helped their cause over here. They have regularly enforced paying bad people more than good people because the only measure they allow is years on the job. They regularly prevent people who want to move into management from doing so (not to be confused with people who don't want to!) be not allowing anything learned to count for your management role. They regularly discourage learning something more. They regularly yell that doing better work just helps your employer and will not help you.

Unions don't have to be that way, but all the examples I have of unions are places I would not want to work. Thus why would I want a union in my job?

[OkayPhysicist]

> They have regularly enforced paying bad people more than good people because the only measure they allow is years on the job.

This is blatant propaganda. Stop repeating it, it's just false. There are plenty of unions where compensation has nothing to do with seniority, just look at SAG-AFTRA: Daniel Radcliffe was making a lot more than actor playing Mr. Dursely, despite the the latter having more acting experience than the former's experience living.

All you do by perpetuating lies about unions is making management more powerful. It doesn't benefit you at all. Yet here you are, going to bat for them.

[bluGill]

It is not false. It is not true for all unions, but it is true for some.

Management is NOT your enemy. This is probably the worst lie unions keep repeating. The best solutions are win-win. Yes management has different interests, but that doesn't make them an enemy.

[OkayPhysicist]

Fundamentally, why do we work? We work for money. The employees want to make as much money as possible, the employer wants to make as much as possible. Management, representing capital, can make more money by paying their employees less. Therein lies the fundamental, unsolvable conflict between labor and management.

[bluGill]

There are win win solutions to that conflict which makes it solvable.

[OkayPhysicist]

By the company as a whole making more money, everyone can make more money. But no matter how much more money the company makes, capital and by extension management can make more money by paying the employees less.

[consz]

Here’s how I think about it —

There’s a value X that’s the absolute minimum you would work for, any less and you quit today.

There’s a value Y that’s the absolute maximum I would pay you, any penny more and I fire you immediately.

Y - X is up for grabs, and there are zero moral proscriptions I would give to any allocation of this between employee and employer. Each and every aspect of the employee-employer relationship is advantaged already in favor of the employer (resource disparity, implicit solidarity from company structure, regulations). Unions tend to reduce my share of Y-X. If I was a laborer, I’d prefer a union.

E: I’ve seen unions that are counter examples to each of your complaints so not really interesting to me to think too much about your own personal experience with unions.

[bluGill]

I've seen counter examples of the unions as well. However overall what I've seen has left me with a bad taste.

[sershe]

Why is that incredible? I left a top level comment on why I hate unions [1], they create the worst set of incentives possible - they are exclusionary, anti-meritocratic, bureaucratic, anti-innovation... if I was to make a purely morality-based choice, without considering selfish consequences, I'd sooner join something less evil like a drug cartel.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37511944