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by paulcole 1019 days ago
> it's the people with options to work somewhere better who are leaving.

As well as the people who aren't pulling their weight and who know that they'll be found out back in the office.

6 comments

I've just found that to be the opposite. When someone is out of office their work is really easy to see. You can just look at their contributions. In fact, it's kind of on them to go out of their way to show the work because a lot of the natural "ah yeah I just got that done, that was tough" conversations won't happen.

The people in the office have a farrrr easier time relying on non-work to look good. They can have conversations, build relationships, etc very naturally. They look like they're working so it's just easier for them not to. I can sit at my desk all day reading HN and I look like I'm working, people will assume I must be. If I'm sitting at home all day reading HN, not so much, I'd better have something to show that I got something done.

> The people in the office have a farrrr easier time relying on non-work to look good. They can have conversations, build relationships, etc very naturally. They look like they're working so it's just easier for them not to.

Worked with someone really good at this. She'd walk the halls in the office with a very serious, determined look on her face, always with laptop in hand. Always drifting past where the Directors and VPs sat. Always striking up conversations with people above her on the totem pole (never, ever being seen talking to a lowly worker bee). Always visibly demonstrating vague "bustle" and "activity." A naive manager would observe her behavior and think to himself "Ahh, yes, the buzz of Business™ Being Done". People like this see their careers absolutely THRIVE in the office, and are desperate for RTO.

This is the Costanza Disposition, the idea that all you really need to do is look annoyed and people will just assume that you're super-busy and overwhelmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8PzhNuh7w

Yes, exactly this! Forgot all about the Seinfeld reference. The more years I work, the more I realize how much of it is this ridiculous performance art / theatrics. And the most talented actors are winning.
Imo It’s easier to pretend to work at the office. Just walk around and chat with coworkers or play ping pong. Unlike remote workers, these workers tend to not be on call all the time.

Both sides of the argument are simultaneously flawed though because we don’t account for one thing: most people work in a mass surveillance environment since everything is connected to the cloud. We know who submitted what, when, and from where. Not to mention telemetry will get better and better. It doesn’t really matter if you work remotely or in office.

Also most sane places have hybrid schedules. I suspect the companies that are forcing RTO are really looking to do a soft layoff.

This is the experience I've made with remote work. Whenever I was at the office, I spent way more time hanging out with colleagues and socializing. When I'm at home, I'm way too worried about seeming like I'm slacking off to actually really slack off.
From my experience, most people who leave do so after finding another position. Those who leave without it, usually feel confident enough they can find another job.

Those that lack that confidence, wait. No point in skipping paychecks and giving up on possible severance when you feel you’re bad.

But believe what you want of course.

> As well as the people who aren't pulling their weight and who know that they'll be found out back in the office.

... and just how is this supposed to happen? Don't those people have deadlines? Deliverables? Or did we invent a sensor that requires one's butt to be sitting at the office?

Is hiding subpar performance that much easier at home than in an open plan office?
If someone is supposed to be spending 8 hours reviewing a proposal in detail, but they instead rubber stamp it after a brief look and head out to the golf course for the rest of the day that's pretty much undetectable. Especially if 99% of proposals are OK.

Unless you're the kind of micro-manager who records mouse movements per minute, demands webcams always be on, or duplicates employees work just in case they missed something.

Obviously for other sorts of work, the same behaviour can be much more detectable.

You haven't actually explained how this slacker is easier to find out in office. Sure they can't go off to the golf course, but there are a million ways people waste time while still being physically present. Instead the scenario you describe is exactly the kind of weak management that doesn't know how to properly evaluate their employees performance that ends up substituting measuring butt in seat time for proper management.
Shouldn’t there be a second person checking the work, at least every now and then?
https://effectiviology.com/brown-mms/ could help solving the reviewing a proposal problem.
I can't go for golf, but I can read HN whole day easily in the office.
Other way around.
No it isn't. You should still have deliverables and those don't really change no matter where you are.
Bingo.

In my experience, anti RTO folks are stacked to 1 actually good employe to about 5 slackers.

I work with a few remote folks today. They are always out of to loop, late to deliver and somehow always have a reason to not be at meetings.

The worst of them before the pandemic were the ones that showed up at 11:30 ate free lunch and was out by 1:30.

While there are genuinely good employees who don’t want RTO, it’s the ones who yell about it the most who are poor performers.

> I work with a few remote folks today. They are always out of to loop, late to deliver and somehow always have a reason to not be at meetings.

You work with bad folks, period. I have seen none of that.

If those employees are objectively poor performers - why aren't they let go? Claims don't add up.
> The worst of them before the pandemic were the ones that showed up at 11:30 ate free lunch and was out by 1:30.

So this is what they were doing with in office work and you think remote work is the issue?

So there's some magic where if they RTO they will suddenly come clean?

Slackers will still slack off. Maybe it's just you can't tell when you're in the office - that's all.

Nobody is "coming clean" the cry and fight for remote work is just an attempt to stay hidden and out of site so they can continue to collect paychecks while doing the most minimal amount of work.