[udev]

What code auditing? Are you claiming NSO has access to iMessage and iOS source code?

NSO seems to be finding more and more bugs by poking a black-box alone, while Apple cannot seem to be able to fix by looking at the source code with all the fuzzing and verification tools, and much more $$$ at their disposal.

[nssexpression]

Sorry I thought it was obvious that I meant reverse engineering the closed source pieces of iMessage and auditing the open source bits. Source code just speeds up the process for vulnerability researchers, so Apple has a leg up in this regard.

"Are you claiming NSO has access to iMessage and iOS source code?"

The last NSO zero-click was in an open-source library reachable from iMessage. This vulnerability is likely no different considering it was in an image decoding library.

NSO group hires many talented security researchers who specialize in reverse engineering and auditing source code. It is hard for people not familiar with security research to understand but there are a lot of very talented code auditors out there who have honed the skill of picking up a new codebase, understanding it better than the developer who wrote it within months, and then finding bugs in it. There are teams of researchers at certain exploit shops who spend their lives focusing on understanding a single target.

Fuzzing is a great tool for finding bugs, but code auditing will always be the best way to find amazing bugs and novel attack surfaces. Researchers who can do both code auditing and fuzzing extremely well (like lokihardt@astr) are even rarer and extremely good because they can both find interesting pieces of code to fuzz through auditing and find amazing bugs while fuzzing.

Apple is and should continue hiring these talented researchers. The point I am making is that they should hire these security researchers even more aggressively and other tech companies should follow. Most of them work at exploit shops like NSO group because they pay a lot better than big tech. One security researcher and one security engineer to every five developers for these critical pieces of code should be the industry standard not 1 security engineer to every 100-1000 devs...

[Obscurity4340]

They also probably use simulation software like Correllium that eerily simulates iOS seemingly to the extent Apple wanted them shut down. If anything, iPhones would be far more secure if everyone could get eyes on their OS and be able to toy with it experimentally. I suspect they aren't the only actor against such radical transparency at the corporate and governmental levels.

[saagarjha]

> exploit shops like NSO group because they pay a lot better than big tech

Ehh…it’s complicated. Often this is not the case.

[itsokimbatman]

You can audit binary code with tools like Ghidra and IDA Pro.

It takes a different mindset to find these type of bugs than it takes to develop software. I won't quite say they're orthogonal skill sets, but pretty close.

If the people finding these bugs don't want to work for Apple, Google Project Zero, etc. there's not really much Apple can do about it.

[beagle3]

It’s not orthogonal, it’s complementary.

Programming mindset is about making sure what’s in the spec works.

Security mindset is about making sure that what isn’t in the spec doesn’t work.

[jbverschoor]

Only requires one corrupt dev