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by naetd 1019 days ago
The first type of 'no' is summarized as just being annoying to implement and not making a big difference, but I think it can be a lot deeper and more consequential than that.

There can be regulation that will damage a companies profits, but also provides positives to public health or other beneficial outcomes. Deeply profitable companies will fight tooth and nail against these regulations even if they are full aware of the damage they are causing. They will come up with as many convincing sounding reasons to say "no" as possible in the name of those immense profits they enjoy, and use techniques like expensive lobbying, sponsoring pseudoscientific studies, running ads, play up fears about economic damage or other negative outcomes of the policy, etc. They try to make it sound like the second or third kinds of "no" in the article and paint it as a bad idea, or impossible to do, or anything else they can to prevent the regulation. And if a certain individual at that company doesn't want to fight for their unethical profit, they'll be swiftly replaced with someone who will.

The obvious (non tech) example is something like the tobacco industry, which spent millions on manipulating public and policy opinion using misleading scientific sounding language or studies to prevent or delay regulation despite being fully aware of the many health detriments of smoking. Public health has been significantly improved as a result of smoking reduction, restrictions on where you can smoke in public spaces, age restrictions, whatever.

I think there is a lot of this currently in companies profiting off social media, oil and gas, and selling user data.

5 comments

> Deeply profitable companies will fight tooth and nail against these regulations even if they are full aware of the damage they are causing.

Unfortunately this is also very similar to one of the most insidious forms of regulation -- the mildly inefficient requirement. You have something which is absolutely not going to bankrupt the company, but it costs three times more than it's worth.

It may even provide some benefit to someone -- someone who is happy to lobby in favor of it if it means they get a third of the money that it's costing customers to require it.

But then inefficiency increases and costs go up and barriers to entry to go up and the market becomes more concentrated, and the incumbents only make a weak showing of opposition because it's not going to kill them and they actually like that it might kill some of their smaller competitors.

So rules like that accumulate, even though they're each a net negative to the world, until people can't make ends meet because everything costs so much more than people get paid. And nobody can point to one single rule as the problem because it's really ten thousand of these little inefficiencies adding up.

Data sharing is a great example. Small Biz A can't share data with Small Biz B, but Biz G can share data between Product A and Product B and their thousands of employees.
Large customers tend to limit data sharing - also in large businesses. Retail customers usually don't have that kind of power.
OTOH, Big G is also a single target should they start abusing that data - as opposed to Small Biz A and Small Biz B, which will just disappear and reopen as Small Biz C and D. Being larger has advantages, but it's not all advantages.
> Deeply profitable companies will fight tooth and nail against these regulations even if they are full aware of the damage they are causing.

There was an article recently about health labels on food in Mexico. The food manufacturers were not allowed to print cute mascots on the packaging for certain foods aimed at children, and had to place a warning label on certain foods. In the first case, the manufacturers switched to transparent packaging, and printed the mascot on the food itself (so that it was clearly visible). In the second case, the manufacturers basically made the front and the back of the packaging the same, but put the mandatory warning only on one side (so store employees would put it on the shelves with the warning on the back). I wish they would pursue ways to make food healthier with the same energy.

ETA: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2023/08/hacking-food-...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37245593

I think there is a good ole 2x2 grid here.

The socially positive nature of the industry on one axis and the degree of strong completion on the other.

So we can have say Retail food stores, sainsbury's and tesco, that deliver mostly positive things (food!) in a highly competitive manner.

We can also see positive industries (water / sewage) that have terrible competitive landscapes (fundamentally monopolies/ utilities). These need to be regulated differently - ie with hands firmly clasped round the throat of all participants.

Bad industries and bad competition looks like the illegal drugs trade (I personally think the cut throat nature of retail stores is as literal cut throat as we want. When the completion stops focusing on making the product better and starts focusing on killing the other stores employees we are not seeing improved markets

And your example was bad industry / good competition- cigarettes are a good example here.

I think it's worth adding a third dimension to the grid - time and future shape. The retail food model is a good one but over time we can see the effect on out of town car parks, the urbanisation vs wqlkability etc etc. Intervening in how stores advertise the price of milk won't help this. But neither will "nerd harder" - there is no solution to "this business model if continued will go the wrong way" that does not involve chnaging the business model - ie charging for car parking space or something.

Anyway, it struck me as a useful simple graph. As business models move to different parts of grid they get regulated differently, and adding time/dependencies in means we can shape the results.

But in the end I am arguing for smart proactive interventionist government.

Let governments be governments

> also provides positives to public health or other beneficial outcomes

But the people asserting these positives are also lobbying, making convincing sounding arguments, running ads, playing up fears, sponsoring pseudo-scientific studies and all the other ills you criticize. And they'll do that even if they're fully aware of the damage they're causing, or will cause with their proposals.

100% - people don't realize what kind of mastermind bullshit companies come up with to keep the profits rolling in nevermind the damage caused.