[gregmac]

Pulumi is an example that proves the exception: using a general purpose language, you create a declaration of desired state.

Think of it like if you used a GPPL to emit HCL. You get the power of that language: loops, function calls, unit tests, or even the ability to call external APIs. You're declaraing desired state and letting the framework sort it outb which is you say you aren't writing imperative code like:

    if (!exists(dnszone)) create(dnszone);

[OJFord]

I didn't name it, but Pulumi's the main (multiple) GPPL alternative I was thinking of. I don't think emitting/compiling to something declarative makes it any better; maybe if you normalised that being the key checked-in thing, a bit like a lockfile, but which people really checked and cared if it changed, more so in a way than the source.

I want to write and review declarative, not compiles-to-declarative.

[AaronFriel]

Hey, Pulumi engineer here.

The engine doesn't compile to a declarative template. It's a common misconception, however because the user's program runs concurrently with the Pulumi engine, fully dynamic resource graphs are possible, including those inexpressible using templates.

This is Pulumi pseudocode:

    const group = new ldap.DirectoryGroup("$saas-users);

    // or any other runtime query:
    for (const member of group.getMembers()) {
      new saas.User(member.id, {
          email: member.email,
          name: member.fullName,
      });

      // could also do some other dynamic action, such as 
      // calling a webhook to complete user setup

And in ~10 lines of code you have a script or webhook you can use in situations where SCIM would normally be required.

(n.b.: this is a simplified, illustrative example that the program drives the graph using its own using loops or other control flow.)

[OJFord]

Ok. I've never actually used Pulumi, I was responding to GP's description. Personally I want declarative for IaaC; some here are advocating for imperative generation of declarative IaaC (and claiming Pulumi as an example), which I think is barely an improvement (but nevertheless..) over imperative IaaC.

[ec109685]

That’s the key. Declarative converging systems so much better than imperative and all the edge case handling necessary.

[OhMeadhbh]

Sure. But some people don't want to do that.

[tekla]

Some people like to overcomplicate things but that's not a reason to care.

[OhMeadhbh]

Sure. But some people don't want to do that.