[signal11]

1) is somewhat impractical, because it’s easy to miss the airport desk which does this, and if you miss the opportunity it’s not easy to go back there (Indian airports don’t really allow you back in if you’ve exited)

2) opening an account isn’t practical for tourists, but of course if you’re living in India for even a short while, it’s worth it.

3) Allegedly UPI will work for NRIs / OCIs with foreign phone numbers. In reality most banks haven’t implemented it yet.

tl;dr - “onboarding” onto UPI for short-term visitors is mired in burdensome bureaucracy, and this isn’t a technical issue with UPI, it’s a result of conscious choices by Indian regulators.

The real win would be if you could load up a UPI wallet like you’d do with PayPal. Perhaps initially restricted to people with a valid visa. But regulators haven’t figured that out yet.

[sudshekhar]

Mentioned this on the parent thread, but there are new UPI apps coming out in the market which don't need a bank account.

https://chequpi.com/

For example

[iDon]

I used the Cheq app to make UPI payments via smartphone / QR code, during a holiday in India in July. The app listed locations for completing the Know Your Customer (KYC) process - I did this at Transcorp in Bengaluru. It was worth the effort - it is far more convenient than cash in most cases. Most vendors kept little change, and even restaurants were not keen on receiving a 500R note for a 200R meal. Similarly for museums, art galleries, historic buildings. Auto-rickshaw drivers were happy with cash, and had a reasonable amount of change. I did find a couple of vendors who weren't registered as merchants for UPI, and I could only transfer to merchants, not other users. For travellers I'd suggest setting up UPI beforehand if possible; as mentioned you can do it as you fly in (Thomas Cook offers this service in the airport), but the KYC might take a while.

(Side-tracking from payments to SIMs : ) Several historic buildings had an online-only ticket process with a QR code displayed outside. The user experience of the websites was variable (navigating the forms and input widgets on a phone while standing in the street could be trying), and they required a lot of information, eg. Passport number and sometimes home address, usually including authentication via one time password sent to mobile phone number and possibly they only work for Indian SIMs. Those sites accepted credit card payment, including international. I couldn't count the number of times I gave my phone number, for all sorts of purposes, e.g. when checking in my phone at a temple, I was photographed and gave my number - simple id and method for finding the phone among all the others (when I realised that I switched the phone back on). And for all of these a local phone number is required, so pick up a local SIM at the airport or in the city. I did both, and I think the airport process was quicker. They do require full id for SIMs, including a local address, e.g. a hotel. A 28-day SIM cost only 299 rupees so I got a second one for increased coverage and capacity, because the networks are over-subscribed. (That's less than the daily rate at home). A dual-SIM phone makes that easy, and I could also run with one local SIM and my home SIM to receive SMSs. I was able to download maps and apps while travelling on buses and trains, and use tracking apps - which helped with knowing when a bus was approaching my stop.

[signal11]

This looks really promising, thank you. (And oh, it’s a YC company!)

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7094460...

Is there a page which lists others like this?

[sudshekhar]

https://www.npci.org.in/what-we-do/upi/3rd-party-apps

https://www.npci.org.in/what-we-do/upi/ppi-apps

These two links list all the approved UPI apps in the Indian fintech market. As you can see, the ecosystem is vibrant and ever-growing :)

We are the first ones to focus exclusively on serving foreigners and NRIs in India and have issued the most number of international wallets till date.

Fave app and First Rupi(from IDFC) are alternatives you can try if interested.

[signal11]

> We are the first ones to focus exclusively on serving foreigners and NRIs in India and have issued the most number of international wallets till date.

Awesome! I look forward to trying out your app!

[kryptozinc]

Tried the app on two different phones with two different USA numbers. Never received the OTP on either. What if this happens when executing a transaction that requires OTP?

[sudshekhar]

UPI transactions thankfully don't need an OTP for verification. As long as you have internet, your payments should work fine

You'll just have to enter the transaction PIN (which you decide while creating the account).

Sim binding generally fails because the individual is unable to send an sms due to recharge/network issues. Can you raise a ticket with the support team? Someone will quickly get in touch and help you onboard.

[unmole]

I saw a 040 support number and got a bit excited for a minute. But looks like you guys are based Bengaluru.

[sudshekhar]

Our team is based out of Bangalore. But Transcorp, our partner, has branches in 22 cities across India.

People can get themselves verified for the Cheq wallet at any of these locations.

[vinay_ys]

Nice and clean! Congrats!

[vinay_ys]

> 1) is somewhat impractical, because it’s easy to miss the airport desk which does this, and if you miss the opportunity it’s not easy to go back there (Indian airports don’t really allow you back in if you’ve exited)

These money exchange counters are before airport security and accessible without "entering" the airport.

[signal11]

Those (before airport security) don’t perform UPI onboarding for foreign tourists. The usually-solitary shop/desk that does this is present in select airports for international arrivals (not departures) and needs to be used before you leave the secure area. And oh, good luck finding it staffed if your flight arrives outside business hours.

Your meta-point though is “oh there’s a workaround” or “if you go through hoops it’s doable”.

My meta-point is, the whole “do it at specific shops in the airport” is problematic and needlessly limiting.

Why an airport? Why’s it special? Could it be more convenient?

Asking these questions of digital systems (any digital system) is what HN is about. Not defending needless limitations.

[vinay_ys]

hey, I'm just trying to be helpful for visiting foreigners. I don't have any need to defend UPI on HN and moreover UPI needs no defending, its stats speak for itself.

[signal11]

Except the ‘helpful’ steps you mentioned don’t really work. (Another commenter linked to some up and coming apps which are far more promising[1], I’d definitely urge interested folk to look into those.)

> moreover UPI needs no defending, its stats speak for itself.

The law of large numbers applies to UPI like it does to almost everything in India: you’ll get huge numbers which look good on slides.

In reality, UPI is a bit above 10% of India’s cash transaction volume, so yeah, the reality of “UPI is ubiquitous” isn’t quite there yet.

And “UPI needs no defending” is the exact uncritical thinking I expect when there’s any forum discussion of UPI. The thread started with people saying UPI doesn’t work for tourists & short term visitors, which I believe is valid criticism.

There are many other criticisms of UPI, including and especially the governance around it. (On a more optimistic note, all of this is fixable.) But that’s for you to figure out if you’re interested!

[1] https://www.ycombinator.com/launches/JDX-cheq-upi-digital-pa...

[vinay_ys]

What's your basis for saying it doesn't work? Have you actually tried to get a prepaid wallet at the airport counter and it didn't work for you?

Don't make unnecessary personal attacks by saying there's no critical thinking. If there's a specific factual thing that's incorrect in what I wrote above, feel free to point it out with evidence. Don't make unnecessary tall and broad claims about others who you know nothing about.

Btw, I didn't say UPI doesn't need improving. I actually worked on different parts of UPI stack to do exactly that. And if you take the time to look at the number of feature launches that have happened on UPI you will realize how much work to improve it is actually happening every month. Also, if you really leave your biases aside and look at it critically, you might realize that the scale of UPI wasn't a given just because it is India. It takes effort make anything get to that scale and keep growing.

[signal11]

> What's your basis for saying it doesn't work? Have you actually tried to get a prepaid wallet at the airport counter and it didn't work for you?

Expecting incoming international passengers to queue up at a solitary shop (and hope that it’s staffed) in an airport arrivals zone, before they exit the airport secure area, isn’t helpful or convenient or “digital”. Because passengers after long flights often just want to exit the airport and get to a comfortable bed. Or even otherwise are prone to making mistakes.

Also, I’ve actually seen the kiosks in two airports unmanned and lying empty (to be fair, early morning arrivals). So even a motivated passenger is not guaranteed to receive service if they arrive at an odd time. So when I say your advice is not helpful, yes, it’s with personal experience.

The apps (one of them funded by YC) are a great alternative to this “line up at a particular spot” madness, and hopefully they’ll improve and become more streamlined over time.

PS. If you say “xx doesn’t need defending its stats speak for itself” you will sound uncritical whether you intend to or not. It’s a classic “shut down debate” line. Perhaps appropriate at the Arnab Goswami school of debate, but out of place elsewhere.

If you use it, are called out, and then see it as a personal attack, that’s unfortunate — certainly not my intention to attack you “personally”, but you’ll need to think about your words too.

[pkd]

Hey guy, I can tell you that a friend recently visited India and was told by the staff at the counter in the airport that the prepaid UPI wallet barely works and to not use it. Also since he landed in the night (like most flights from the West will), the counter was officially "closed" for this purpose and he had to haggle with the people at the counter to even get as far as he did.

UPI is a great system for Indians, but it is still hostile to anybody visiting without an Indian identity document. India's reliance on SMS for OTP codes is also super bad imo. There is no need to be defensive about UPI. It's good, but it can always be better.

[kiratp]

India’s obsession with SMS codes and UPI in particular sucks as a tourist/visiting businessperson. Nothing works with a non-Indian number. You can’t get an Indian SIM without an Aadhar number outside an airport and every time I’ve flown in late at night those airport kiosks have been unstaffed.

The whole system is built around phone numbers. It puts the end of the chain of trust in the hands of the corner store vendor not accepting a fake photocopy of an ID to swap SIMs. It’s ko different than when South Korea mandated ActiveX for browser security for banks.

Let’s not even get started on the whole Unique Identification Authority (UIDAI) joke. India doesn’t have Apple Pay because it’s illegal to have device-local biometrics - you must store it and verify it with the government.

UPI is also an extremely shortsighted system throwing away any semblance of privacy for the population. The whole thing doesn’t have fees partly because sharing every bit of transaction data with 7+ parties in every transaction is how it is funded.