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by snowwrestler 1026 days ago
It seems like an entire generation has grown up believing that vote features on the Internet exist to improve quality, because that's what they were told by the websites who marketed those features.

Members of a prior generation may remember that voting features were introduced explicitly to improve engagement, not quality. Those little triangles next to this comment are there to give you something to do, and thereby hopefully increase the chance that you'll feel invested in this site to come back. Not to discover the truth, improve awareness of facts, or build community.

Voting is a mechanism by which people express their values. If people know facts and value them, then a voting mechanism will deliver facts. But if they don't, then it won't.

I will say it seems to take an impressive lack of introspection to spend thousands of words expertly fact-checking how Community Notes works, and yet still conclude that fact-checking by experts "seems risky."

Vitaly's personal values are expressed most clearly here:

> ultimately I come down on the side that it is better to let ten misinformative tweets go free than it is to have one tweet covered by a note that judges it unfairly

It should be noted that he is less sanguine about letting misinformation run free when he is complaining about inaccurate press coverage of cryptocurrency. (Pretty much like anyone who complains about inaccurate press coverage, honestly.) It's always easier to be sanguine about someone else's misinformation that affects other people.

7 comments

> I will say it seems to take an impressive lack of introspection to spend thousands of words expertly fact-checking how Community Notes works, and yet still conclude that fact-checking by experts "seems risky."

Only if you take the label "expert" as given and not itself subject to fact checking.

Very few people have a problem with expert fact checking, if that person is actually an expert. Hence why most people will listen to specialists doing work on their home, or their accountant when receiving tax advice. It's not controversial and doesn't differ by political stance. In this case Vitalik is clearly qualified to read, understand and explain ML Python; he is agreed upon by all to genuinely have expertise (relative to the average layman at least).

The reason that expertise has become so controversial nowadays is due to the left's habit of automatically labelling any academic or civil servant an expert, and continuing to insist on the unquestionable nature of their expertise even after widely publicized and very basic failures. To other people expertise is something you have to prove via unambiguous and exceptional results, not merely assert via title, and the public sector's general lack of quantifiably positive results makes academic expertise frequently subject to dispute.

>Members of a prior generation may remember that voting features were introduced explicitly to improve engagement, not quality. Those little triangles next to this comment are there to give you something to do, and thereby hopefully increase the chance that you'll feel invested in this site to come back. Not to discover the truth, improve awareness of facts, or build community.

What are you basing this on? Was this written by some website owner, or is that just how you feel about it? Given you can engage by either voting or replying, I feel like voting is much more about molding and curation than engagement. Replying is a much stronger form of engagement: people can see that it is you specifically who engaged, and you can express your opinion more fully.

I agree that "quality" is subjective and so isn't the right concept, but it's about a community shaping a platform's content based on the average of their preferences and therefore making it more likely any of them will want to continue using the community in the future. It of course doesn't necessarily optimize for truth, but it optimizes for the feedback loop of a site's users turning the site into what they want to see and being more likely to use (and vote on) the site more actively as a result. I disagree that the mere act of feeling like you're making a difference is what's actually enticing to people and what brings them back.

> It should be noted that he is less sanguine about letting misinformation run free when he is complaining about inaccurate press coverage of cryptocurrency. (Pretty much like anyone who complains about inaccurate press coverage, honestly.) It's always easier to be sanguine about someone else's misinformation that affects other people.

How can you conflate someone expressing an opinion on their "micro-blog" to their followers who have opted in to hear such opinions with the idea of having tweets arbitrarily interjected with "expert opinions".

Even though Vitalik is one of the world's experts on crypto and cryptocurrency and blockchain systems, he would never suggest to be given the authority to directly annotate incorrect tweets about crypto with his own expert opinion. It's pretentious to believe that such a thing is desirable or could ever be neutral. Such a system is ALWAYS capturable and corruptible. So of course it's risky. That's why free speech being a social and cultural value is as important as it being a law for governments to respect. Meaningless is the law if a culture is too prudish or too conforming to begin with.

If Vitalik wishes to persuade people away from bad opinions about crypto, doing so at his leisure on his own micro-blog or regular blog is certainly a preferable option to acting as some sort of Minister of Truth.

> Those little triangles next this comment are there to give you something to do, and thereby hopefully increase the chance that you'll feel invested in this site to come back.

Well put. Have an upvote. ;-)

Yes, I think the voting system is probably the single worst idea that has been implemented online in the last 15 years. It's made everything into a shouting match where the objective is to push your opinion to the top while burying the ones you disagree with.

Forums never had this issue and there was no way to downvote an unpopular forum comment, other than banning the poster entirely. There was a lot more room for friendly debate.

Reddit would not have ever been a good site without voting. Because of that it became one of the best places for finding information on a wide variety of topics.

This comment is cynical to the point of ignoring reality.

Informative sub-reddits are valuable because they are carefully moderated by humans. Just like Hacker News is.
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