[jasona99]

I agree to some extent that people can control their situation with choices, but I would like to push back on a few of those examples as I think it's a little disingenuous to say everyone can simply make choices in our society and do better. For example, living in a bad location also often means one would have limited options for work, which limits their income and prevents them from being able to just move out of that situation. Limited free time from working multiple low-paying part- or even full-time jobs to support oneself or others can make paths to gaining more education, whether free or not, just not feasible. Good luck getting a somewhat reasonable SBA loan with a criminal record! I know you are giving very simple examples, but many of them fail to account for the situation one would be in to require improving the situation. In theory, yes, I agree, there are ways out of bad situations simply by taking the correct steps, but those paths out may just not be open for people in the very situations where they might most benefit.

I've seen many truly impoverished areas of the United States (large swathes of West Virginia primarily come to mind, no offense to the West Virginians on here) where these paths are not tenable. Many of these areas straight up don't have regular internet access. These whole regions are lacking in education and options for mobility are severely restricted. I simply do not believe it is because everyone in that area has decided they just don't want to do better for themselves, but that there are systemic problems preventing these people from being able to take these steps.

[WalterBright]

> move

Allow me to point out the millions of immigrants that walk across a continent to try and slip over the border into America. The ones that make it rarely have more than the clothes on their back.

Yet they moved away from a bad situation to a better one, and have made it to every corner of the country.

> but that there are systemic problems preventing these people from being able to take these steps.

Nobody there has their feet nailed to the ground.

[jasona99]

> Allow me to point out the millions of immigrants that walk across a continent to try and slip over the border into America.

Sure, but even when they get to America, unless they already have some degree of monetary means, a large portion of those immigrants will end up stuck in low-paying, high-labor jobs, often in agriculture and heavy industry, without savings or means to move elsewhere for years. Those paths to better work, education, or location once in America are not going to be open to them as they will have no resources to draw upon. Not being a citizen also can be severely restricting. Most mobility is not seen for one or more generations and many immigrants simply remain in deep poverty indefinitely. Immigration is not a silver bullet to a great life, even if an immigrant does everything correctly. Would you say they get stuck here of their own volition after risking their lives and the lives of their families to get to America, or that it is systemically hard for an immigrant to rise out of poverty in America?

> Nobody there has their feet nailed to the ground.

I am trying to highlight that moving, especially to a higher cost of living area, is expensive and people risk being homeless for a non-trivial amount of time at an often slim chance of doing better. That can be very dangerous for a myriad of reasons and I imagine a risk that is simply too great for most, even if they are willing to do difficult things to do better. I would argue that this is not their fault for simply being born in an area with poor wages, education, and support systems, but that the area they originally lived in has a more systemic issue preventing mobility.

[WalterBright]

I made the acquaintance of an Afghan refugee who got out with nothing but his skin a couple years ago. He was operating a thriving car service. I had little doubt he'd be a millionaire soon.

> this is not their fault for simply being born in an area

I never said it was their fault for where they were born. But once they are legal adults, they can move.

> especially to a higher cost of living area

Seattle being a high cost of living has completely failed at preventing thousands of homeless people from arriving.

> or means to move elsewhere

They had zero means to move here other than their feet. They can move elsewhere.

> or that it is systemically hard for an immigrant to rise out of poverty in America?

If people constantly tell them they cannot, quite a few will believe it. Have you ever done anything that everyone told you you could not do?

[MrVandemar]

> I made the acquaintance of an Afghan refugee who got out with nothing but his skin a couple years ago. He was operating a thriving car service. I had little doubt he'd be a millionaire soon.

A bit too "n = 1" there. What do the statistics of Afghan immigrants in your country in general show? Do they support your overall argument?

[WalterBright]

I know two others, from two other countries, who came here with nothing but a suitcase and are now millionaires.

[MrVandemar]

So "n = 3". I enquired as to broad geographic statistics, not anecdotal evidence.

[milesvp]

You are not wrong. Part of why I’m a huge fan of immigration, is that the numbers show that every major wave of immigration the US has encountered led to massive GDP growth. Immigrants tend to be net savers.

But, I believe it’s important to make immigration a little hard. Why? because it acts as a filter, that ensures that more capable immigrants are more likely to make it through.

I say this, because correlation is not causation. The people who are able to emigrate are more likely to be successful immigrants. So please be a little careful with confirmation bias. I tend to agree that moving out of a bad situation is a very good idea. I also know sometimes a bad situation is something you have to deal with. Some people really do have obligations that keep them tied to a location, often in the form of family (and I say this as a believer in dropping toxic family members).