[unethical_ban]

I'd argue the trans and gnederfluid movement is counterculture in that it is a major shift in social norms, language and self-presentation and isn't yet sufficiently mainstream to be noncontroversial.

Aside from identity, is there no counterculture, or is everything so interconnected and observable via Internet and social media that nothing is in a "dark corner" anymore? I can see that argument.

[coldtea]

A counterculture with corporations, millitary, CIA, countries, munipalities, universities, and so on, flying the flags?

[prepend]

> I'd argue the trans and gnederfluid movement is counterculture in that it is a major shift in social norms

Maybe twenty years ago, it’s hit a significant low single digits and had a chunk of prime shelf space to display mass produced merchandise at Target.

I think the change is that things are marketed as if they are cool and novel and rate, because that sells more. But it’s obviously not rare and counterculture if Walmart is ordering a million “Yas queen” t-shirts and selling them in 25k population cities.

Controversial doesn’t mean counter-culture. There’s just different preferences in the mainstream.

Some people liked Michael Jackson, some liked Garth Brooks. Neither were counter-culture. They were both very mainstream.

[pyrale]

> But it’s obviously not rare and counterculture if Walmart is ordering a million “Yas queen” t-shirts and selling them in 25k population cities.

So, in a nutshell, counter-culture can't exist because of fast-fashion?

I believe we should separate the ability for commercial brands to provide products to increasingly small market segments, and acceptance of sub-cultures that these products are marketed to.

[mcpackieh]

More likely, counterculture has decoupled itself from clothing fashion. If your counter-cultural uniform is being sold at walmart, then it's a farce. The real counter-cultures have moved on and no longer care about what kinds of clothing you wear. On the internet nobody cares if you have regular jeans and a tshirt, or an elaborate outfit of leather straps and metal chains, face tattoos and 50 nose piercings; such outward expressions of "counter-culture" have all gone mainstream and become corporate products. The real counter-culture, if in fact any still exists, is expressed through words and deeds, not what clothing or music you buy. People who try to buy their way into a counter-culture at a clothing store are simply mainstream posers, usually aping a style their parents' or grandparents' generation innovated with... and then commercialized.

In 2023, somebody dressing like a punk or a prep means nothing, they both buy their clothes from the same stores and probably have the same mainstream ideas and values. Their preference for clothing style is no more meaningful than somebody's preference for vanilla, chocolate or strawberry icecream. These kind of preferences don't indicate any kind of counter-culture.

Furthermore, niche subcultures aren't counter-cultures. Subcultures exist within some greater cultural context, they don't stand apart from and oppose that greater 'mainstream' culture. To be counter-culture, truly, you need to transgress against the mainstream culture. Simply having unusual niche tastes doesn't cut it. There is no average man, everybody is unusual when you consider enough factors[0]. Consider the intersection of all of your personal attributes you can think of, physical, emotional, historical, intellectual.. how many people exist in that set? Probably just you. It is this way with everybody. Possessing a very unique set of attributes isn't counter-cultural, it's the norm. Everybody exists in subcultures, even the counter-culturals have subcultures. Existing in a subculture is not what it means to be counter-cultural.

[0] In the 1950s, USAF researchers measured the physical attributes of their pilots, found the averages of those measurements, then found that not a single pilot was average across the board. Utterly average individuals don't exist.

[Mountain_Skies]

When your country flies your flag over its embassies around the world, you are not the counterculture. And let's not even get started on how the Fortune 500 has embraced this faux counterculture.

[Ekaros]

If you get wide ranging corporate support, per cyberpunk traditions you are on the evil side. And actually the grass roots movements that are against that sort of messaging by corporations and big political parties are the counter culture.

[femming]

Radical feminists are the counterculture here. They're fighting against both the prevailing male-dominated liberal and conservative cultures, on so many fronts, including this. Particularly this, right now, as a matter of urgency, before women are erased and replaced in law and policy.

Their messaging is grassroots - stickering, small-scale protests bringing together a network of like-minded women. They exist on the fringes of the internet, corralled off into their own online spaces after being forcibly removed from the mainstream.

[suoduandao3]

By Radical feminists I assume you mean what the mainstream culture calls TERFs? If so I think that's a good point, and funny how both the DEI enforcement officers in HR and the countercultural elements putting stickers on bus stops call themselves the same thing.

[yeouch]

Barbie grossed double Oppenheimer. Feminism is the culture- not the counter-culture.

[Abekkus]

Bread and circuses. Roe V Wade was just revoked, folks. Women are being sent to prison for miscarriages.

[yeouch]

This is a good point and I feel silly for my previous comment.

[falqun]

There is a big difference between the association with the flag and actually living the culture. But to be fair you would only really know that if you were actually dipping a toe into the culture, for the rest the trick of companies works.

[ekianjo]

Its not counterculture if the white house has your flag front and center. You understand the meaning of counter, right?

[unethical_ban]

Is that your sole criterion? Removing all gender roles and minimizing the importance of reproduction and the family unit is a pretty big shakeup in the past 20-30 years.

Must the movement be struggling to be considered? If it is just "what the majority political parties agree is unpalatable" then I guess we could say actual socialism or anti capitalism is there.

[mcpackieh]

Counter-cultures aren't counter to whatever was mainstream 20-30 years ago, they're counter to whatever is mainstream today. Actual socialism is not and will never be well represented by corporate media, but is actually fairly common in the general population. On the other hand, those who are called (but do not call themselves) 'TERFs' seem like the perfect example of a counter-culture.

[OfSanguineFire]

I hadn’t been to the USA in quite a few years and assumed that transpeople in America were largely limited to loud voices on social media. Then I went and spent three weeks in the USA last year and repeatedly met transpeople, whether the cashiers at a CVS or fast food, or other cyclists I met on a popular bikepacking route I followed. Regardless of what controversy still exists, I concluded that this had already evolved from a counterculture into the general culture.