[Transpire7487]

I thought that SpaceX, due to the nature of their work (rockets) were specifically prohibited from hiring non-citizens?

Edit: seems like the DOJ is claiming that that is not the case. Weird…so this is basically going to boil down to each side arguing their interpretation of a regulation.

Can’t say this doesn’t smell just a little political.

[foooorsyth]

>Can’t say this doesn’t smell just a little political.

The President of the United States very publicly called for Musk and his companies to be investigated back in November of ‘22. Ironically, this was because of supposed relationships with other countries.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/biden-says-elon-musks-rel...

So he deserves investigation due to foreign business relationships, then gets sued for not hiring (edge-case) foreigners to build state of the art rocket technology. Cue the Curb Your Enthusiasm theme song.

[WaitWaitWha]

I was wondering about that too. They are restricted from exporting the knowledge and are restricted (ITAR, EAR, FARS/DFARS, etc.) in some roles to use non-US citizens, and not even "lawful permanent residents" are allowed to take them. (Background 19 in DoJ filling) Export means sharing the information with non-US citizen or green card holder, irrelevant where the action takes place (i.e. the non-US recipient can be in Richmond, VA; it is the citizenship/green card that matters not the location).

It is possible that the roles identified by the DOJ are not under these restriction.

That said, how is this going to be resolved with the compliance requirements

[Transpire7487]

I went and clicked on a random job posting for SpaceX and there are references to refugees and asylees being allowed to apply now.

Seems like it’s going to boil down to “we interpreted the regulation wrong, oopsies”.

[xNeil]

Per the website linked, asylees and refugees do not come under the export control act, as opposed to citizens of other nations. The timing of the lawsuit does seem interesting though.

[dragonwriter]

It’s not citizenship (otherwise asylees, refugees, and even permanent resident aliens would be excluded.)

A “foreign person” is defined in ITAR (22 CFR Sec. 120.63), by reference to two sections of immigration law in Title 8 of the US Code, as someone who is none of the following: a US citizen, a lawful permanent resident, an asylee or refugee, a person lawfully admitted for permanent residency (I haven’t done the analysis to see if this is distinct from “lawful permanent resident” or if its overlap with different language between the categories referenced from different parts of Title 8 of the US Code), a person lawfully admitted for certain classes of temporary residency.

[master_crab]

IANAL but aren’t asylees and refugees still a citizen of the nation they left?

[thebooktocome]

It’s complicated, but not always.

Regardless, the ITAR issue is secondary; they hire for roles that do not touch ITAR.

[dragonwriter]

> Regardless, the ITAR issue is secondary

I dunno, if the people they are discriminating against are “US persons” and not “foreign persons” under ITAR, then the whole ITAR argument for discrimination, whether its direct coverage or some kind of indirect risk creating something that Tesla wants to try to argue is a bona fide occupational qualification justifying discrimination, is cut off at the root.

[mcpackieh]

> It’s complicated, but not always.

If the refugee has a new citizenship in their host nation, then in what sense are they still a refugee?

[Transpire7487]

I haven’t been following bird man’s (X man?) shenanigans for a long time, what happened?

[soperj]

He hasn't even owned twitter for a year... clearly you've followed his shenanigans a little.

[Transpire7487]

I suppose a “long time” is relative. I don’t have a Twitter account and haven’t cared much about what he does for about…3 months or so? with a 24 hour news cycle that fees like an eternity.

I thought gp was alluding to something within the last few days.

[Quillbert182]

If they aren't, they probably should be.

[HWR_14]

SpaceX is prohibited from hiring non-US-persons (for at least some roles.) US Persons includes all US citizens, and several other groups of people. It is also illegal to use the differences between types of US Persons in hiring decisions. The lawsuit is because SpaceX wrote US citizens instead of US Persons. They now list all categories of US Persons in their job listings (in response to this suit, most likely), so this is about past behavior and probably will be trivially settled for a fine.

There is also an active question of if the discrimination is still happening, in which case the governments goal is to prevent compliance only in the job listings.

[dragonwriter]

> Weird…so this is basically going to boil down to each side arguing their interpretation of a regulation.

Legal disputes often center on disputes on the meaning of law (including regulations.)

That's…not weird at all.

> Can’t say this doesn’t smell just a little political.

Yes, government actions often smell just a little “of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government”.

[Transpire7487]

Well at least you admit that the pretence of the Department of Justice being non-partisan/independent is just a facade.