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by mk_stjames 1042 days ago
> But if I did edit a feature length film that became a major box-office hit, I should get some residuals to help tide me over.

This is the line that made me sit and think about this whole construct for a bit.

I've worked as an engineer for multi-billion-dollar companies. I've designed components and whole systems that then get put into mass production and stay in production for years. Safety-critical in some cases. Some of those components are still being made today and still generating revenue for those companies, nearly a decade after I moved on.

Should my work back then be continuously rewarded if that company still uses that design, unchanged, and still generates revenue from it? I've since gone into consulting, and as a private contractor I work similar stints as a hollywood editor- sometimes I do not have a steady client for many months at a time. It would be great if my engineering work for companies past could 'hold me over' via residuals. But that isn't how getting paid for my time works. I just bid my hourly rates accordingly, of course.

You could say stock options in companies are similarly equivalent to residual checks for hollywood, but... it's not. Stock prices aren't always tied to anything rational (although... I don't know how hollywood accounting is either). And they aren't something that are guaranteed to be negotiable or granted post-facto.

What I'm trying to point out here is... a lot of people in Hollywood seem to think they have something special somehow and aren't at the will of a market to set prices. If they want better profit sharing, there should be ways to do that, but its ultimately down to setting your prices and being paid for your time and thats is how it works for nearly everyone else in the world who 'creates' things.

4 comments

The difference is 1) the power law distribution of revenue and 2) the finality of a movie.

1: A few movies (e.g. Barbie, Spiderman, Oppenheimer this year) make the majority of the money. Most movies make little. So if you pay based on expected return you probably don't pay your actors at all, or pay them peanuts. That's inequitable. But you can't pay them lots because you don't know how much money the movie is going to make. The solution is profit sharing. Most software business have much more stable income.

2: A movie, when finished, is done. There may be a director's cut in a decade or two if it's a super popular movie. There are occasionally different edits for different markets (alternate endings etc.) But basically it's done. The movie that is shown on release is the movie you watch 20 years later. So you can easily apportion credit to the actors, writers, etc. This isn't the case for software. It continually evolves. You made the initial design, but 64 other developers have worked on it since. Who gets credit?

Good points, helps solidify differences that I had trouble thinking about.

But to add, for me I wasn't talking about software, I actually engineered hardware- in my case, vehicle and airframe structures. Way more direct and less abstract than software. Large software systems may be some of the most difficult examples in the credit tracking problem, for sure.

My bad for assuming software. In your case, I imagine it's the lack of power law returns that make profit sharing less attractive.
point 1 to me is an argument against profit sharing. direct profit sharing would mean that only those who contribute to a profitable movie earn any of the profit. but we also need to pay people working on movies that don't make a profit. the only way to make that work is to use the profitable movies to finance the unprofitable ones. if there is profit to be shared then it would be the profit of the studio as a whole after all movies are paid for, and that profit should be shared with all employees and contractors of the studio.
FWIW residuals are all a result of union effort, so the market IS actually what’s allowing for/encouraging the residual structure. If the studios felt they could create similar products without the benefit of union workers (eg SAG, WGA, ACE, etc), they could easily break contract and start hiring from wherever they please, under whatever rates they agreed upon. Perhaps this current strike will end in just such a scenario, which would support what you’ve outlined in your comment here.
>Should my work back then be continuously rewarded if that company still uses that design, unchanged, and still generates revenue from it?

I believe so but for a different reason. I think a model where you are paid very little but remain the owner of your code, a hit and miss where you gradually accumulating income over many years, could work wonderfully if you also remain partially responsible for maintenance. The revenue shared should go up for every hour of effort but be a fixed part of earnings a bit like stock options but with various safeguards build in. If the company goes bankrupt at 1% of the [say] 30 year period they should pay 99% of the agreed upon salary as if a normal job.

Over the 30 years one could agree to pay many times that amount.

I've previously called it a priest hood where each monk maintains a specific module or library. The less work they do the better the results.

I had a similar discussion on Tiktok of all places regarding the Rachel Zellger comments on her playing Snow White.

“I had to sit 17 hours in a Disney Princess dress! I want money for every hour it is watched” and I had a similar thought to you.

I feel like its a good idea but I’ve definitely missed something with capitalism: I thought the notion of being paid for your time leaves the fruits of that labour in the rightful hands of those who “invested” the capital up front to pay you.

If thats the case then getting residuals is directly against that notion at least, but hey, its what they negotiated so good on them.

However, where would that end hypothetically- what makes artistic works more inherently valuable in the long tail? I mean- aside from the fact that we all agree.

Why is design work, or even craftsmanship not rewarded the same? Its not like there is additional work to be done for artistic works.

It it because of likeness? I don’t fully understand.

That's just it- at least with a likeness- your face, your voice... I can see a bit more of a justification. It's you, and it means 'you' are a continuous part of the product directly.

But an editor? A composer? A VFX artist? Why not the light guy or the craft services people?

How about this thought experiment:

My tile guy did a bang up job on my shower when I rebuilt this house. I mean... literally this rock wall in the bathroom is a work of art. It definitely increased the value of the home. I paid about $1600 to the guy for that work, it took him about 3 days. (I actually can't remember what it cost right now and I'm not up on masonry work prices so if that number seems way off don't read into it.)

Now, about 8 years later, and the market value of this house is about double what it was before I renovated. If I sold the house now... that nice shower is definitely adding to the fact the house is worth what it is, along with the overall market increase. If I made a 180% return on this home when I sell, should I fire off a $1280 check to my tile guy?

Sound ridiculous? Or no?

If, instead, the price of your houses halves over that time frame, do you invoice your tiler for his portion of your loss?
Do you take money from thespians if a movie tanks?
You could replace that rock wall with a turd wall and the house would be worth exactly the same and it's being valued that ONLY and ONLY because other houses in that location ask the same prices.

I lived to hear everything. "My property has doubled in value because of a turd wall".