[noahlt]

The "Ask vs Guess" name rhetorically frames it in favor of the Askers. Asking sounds reasonable, guessing does not!

But really it's not about "Guessing", it's about understanding. It's about community, and relationship, and trust. What this culture really wants is for you to pay attention and understand the people around you, rather than treating everything as a transaction.

[smeej]

Hmm. I think I've primarily experienced the really dark side of guess culture, so I appreciate your framing of it as a desire for understanding when it's in a healthy context.

I've experienced it in the contexts of narcissism and borderline personality, where the underlying thought is, "I am so obviously the center of the world that anyone with half a brain who's paying a whit of attention should to intuit my needs without my having to speak a word. If I have to speak, you have already failed." And anyone who failed was punished, sometimes intensely.

Ask culture, for me in that context, became about being able to exist as a separate person and express a boundary. I'd much rather put the cards on the table, find out we want completely different, even opposed things, and work from there, than deal with the power imbalance of one person's assumption that anyone who isn't reading their mind is an idiot.

It seems the virtue, as most of the time, is in the mean.

[flatline]

I have lived this too.

Likewise ask culture can only be healthy if there is not a power imbalance: is the asked party really free to say no?

The title is catchy but I’m not sure how useful this dichotomy really is.

[ativzzz]

You can also be more empathetic with ask culture and soften or make the request more obvious to say no to.

Instead of saying "can you do x" you can say "i know you're busy so no pressure whatsoever but if you're available can you do me out with x? feel free to say no my feelings won't be hurt"

Yea it's a lot more words but the general gist is you ask with an additional explicit "out" for the other person so they can say no using your pre-provided excuse instead of them having to come up with one. I've found this over communication can be useful for bridging the gap sometimes

[reddit_clone]

As a (suffering) guesser myself, when I have to ask something I always phrase it like 'would you be interested in doing this?' so that they can say 'no' without stress.

Instead of asking 'Would you do this for me? etc.' which I know would cause a mild-natured guesser stress.

[reddit_clone]

It is also true that for some (many?) people it is very hard to say 'No'. I don't know any psychological/technical name for this but it is simply true and it is in their nature.

When asked directly, they will give in even if they don't like doing what is being asked.

'Asking' in these cases is actually exploitation (if done with prior knowledge).

[xyzelement]

I think what you describe in the flip side of this. If I assume guess culture, then you asking me something implies that you reasoned out that I should give it to you. That puts a lot of expectations on me and I feel like I am going to really upset you if I say no.

Meanwhile you may have just asked me on a long shot.

[smeej]

I think, "It can't hurt to ask," is the leading mindset of ask culture.

If the other person is also an asker, it's probably accurate. As an asker myself, I have no trouble saying no when the answer is no. I will generally offer some explanation of the no, and I'll probably also suggest some other way the other person can accomplish what they were asking me about, but saying no just feels like "being honest" to me.

I'm also comfortable with the prospect that I might disappoint people this way. I consider my own disappointment to be my responsibility, and thus also consider other people's disappointment to be theirs, not mine.

[TylerE]

People Pleaser

[reddit_clone]

That is accurate even if it sounds mildly derogatory. Any kind of confrontation is very difficult for some people while it means nothing to others.

Simple example, when somebody cuts into a line in a super market, how many people actually speak up? Most of the time I see eye-rolls, angry shrugs but people just move on.

[smeej]

I have no problem with confrontation, but I also don't seek it out, and there's definitely a tradeoff.

Is checking out one person later going to be better or worse than what will probably be the very mild confrontation of prompting someone to move back in line? Usually, one person's inconvenient action has no meaningful impact on me at all and is quickly forgotten, but I don't know how it might impact the other person, so I wouldn't normally choose that confrontation even though it also wouldn't bother me if it happened. I'm weighing "no impact on either of us" with "no impact on me, but possible negative impact on the other."

[andrewflnr]

> can only be healthy if there is not a power imbalance

I don't know if that's any less true of "guess" culture. In guess culture the one with less power gets punished for guessing wrong instead of asking wrong.

[mannykannot]

In this case, the unreasonable person does not understand the culture he is embedded in, and would not understand an 'ask' culture either, where refusal to accede to his wants is regarded as reasonable.

The difference between normal and pathological behavior in either culture lies in whether people treat others in the same way they would like to be treated themselves.

[throwanem]

What you're describing is abusive behavior, which is something I would hesitate very strongly to characterize as part of any cultural norm.

[galangalalgol]

It can be more moderate than that. "what is wrong honey?". "Nothing, I'm fine". Which can either mean, no really I'm fine, or if you don't know, you obviously don't care about me, or you know exactly what is wrong and don't pretend otherwise. I've been both parties in that conversation, and over time I have learned that ask culture works better between close friends and family. That doesn't mean I'd consider it abusive though, just a non optimal communication strategy.

[hosh]

If there is one thing I learned, it is that when it comes to life partners and family where the stakes are conmingled, for the really important stuff, it is better to be open and direct.

So I think one of the hidden dimensions here are — are you guessing because you are trying to consider the other person, or are you guessing because there is vulnerability to exposing what you really feel?

[throwanem]

As a product of Southern American culture, I would note that "guess" culture as described here - specifically, the preference for indirectness and inference - is always something that exists primarily in and near interaction among strangers. It doesn't always disappear entirely in familiar relationships, but does abate significantly in favor of being more direct. (Of course, this in itself increases the chance of cultural mismatches causing conflict, as what's ordinary for someone from an "ask" culture can easily read as an insulting assumption of excess familiarity for someone raised with "guess".)

That said, it is important to keep in mind that what's here under discussion is a broad and fairly imprecise description of how varying acculturation can affect interpersonal relationships mostly among people who don't know one another all that well. In that context it's useful; to try to generalize it to every human interaction is not.

[throwanem]

This also reminds me of the distinction drawn between "honor" and "dignity" cultures, as eg in [1]; I'd be interested to see how the "ask" vs. "guess" distinction maps, especially as antebellum Southern and prewar Japanese cultures both fall as strongly on the "honor" side as their modern successors fall on the "guess" side.

[1] https://alexandria.ucsb.edu/lib/ark:/48907/f37d2s7h#:~:text=....

[epylar]

I can think of several examples.

Verbal abuse, childhood bullying, body shaming, cyberbullying, workplace harassment are all abusive and normal and accepted in many cultures.

[__MatrixMan__]

Why is that? Don't you think that abuse can become a cultural norm?

I don't think we'd have ever come up with money if abuse weren't a common cultural norm. It's pretty much a proxy for "or I'll have my thugs hurt you".

[throwanem]

Better put, I'd say that I would hesitate to characterize a cultural preference for either directness or indirectness as akin to the kind of abuse a narcissist deals out to everyone around them.

The argument is easy to construct in either direction, but in no case adds anything of value to the conversation.

Too, claiming that abuse is "just a cultural thing" offers both abusers a convenient excuse for their actions, and everyone who isn't abusive but does share traits of whichever culture an undue indictment.

[DirkH]

I guarantee you that abusive cultural norms exist and many poor individuals stuck in cultures with abusive norms wish they were living in a different culture.

[smeej]

The list of things I grew up thinking were normal that I later found out were pathological or abusive is as long as my arm, so I'd have to agree with you.

That's why I'm grateful that the commenter I replied to helped me see the healthier side of this trait!

[platz]

I expect you incorporate aspects of "guess" culture without even realizing it.

For example, Is it okay if I bang your wife/gf?

If you think that's a rude question, why? All I'v done is Ask.

[smeej]

I don't think I understand your example, but that may come from having had more than my share of polyamorous friends.

By default, I would take your request at face value and have no trouble saying, "No, we're monogamous, but I can't very well blame you for wanting to!"

[platz]

very well, but what percentage of the population do you think would consider that rude.

Of course, the nut of the question is whether its ever possible to be rude with a question. If it's possible to be rude with a statement, I don't really see the difference between questions and statements, at the higest level, though

[Galacta7]

Thinking about it, it seems questions generally allow for some flexibility of interpretation reducing potential cause for offense, where statements allow far less latitude. The problem is that some questions require foundational understandings that may be offensive, or can really only be understood with malintent. "When did you stop beating your wife?" comes to mind. The question doesn't even allow for the possibility that you don't beat your wife.

Similarly, "Can I sleep with your wife" implies that the asker thinks it's a possibility worth inquiring about. So I basically agree with you on a practical level -- most people would not respond well to the underlying assumption. The question is a veiled statement ("I think you might be open to letting me sleep with your wife, so here I am asking"). In that sense, the question and the statement aren't very different, as you noted.

[smeej]

Unless I have other context to assume ill will, I've fought for years to train myself not to assume it. Whenever I can, I try to interpret something in a light where the other person means no offense.

Certainly sometimes I'm wrong. Most people are assholes sometimes (myself included), and some people are assholes most of the time. But I've found my conversations go best when I try not to assume assholery about someone for as long as I possibly can.

In this case, assuming someone's worldview doesn't take monogamy for granted, and that they've also noticed how sexy my partner is, is how I avoid being offended, even if they frame the request in a somewhat crass way.

[gardenhedge]

Even if you someone was polyamorous, the question is still offensive as it implies ownership and authority.

[smeej]

I think the "with you" is implied: "Is it OK with you..."

I can't imagine a context in which someone would bother asking me for permission to rape my partner.

[Tijdreiziger]

> […] one person's assumption that anyone who isn't reading their mind is an idiot.

Ah, I see you’ve met my dad.

[Aerbil313]

> "I am so obviously the center of the world that ... If I have to speak, you have already failed."

IME this person is always a women dominating her family. Idk why.

[smeej]

It was my dad in my house by miles, but my grandma was like that to my mother, so I'm pretty sure that swings both ways.

[MyneOutside]

This and when that person is a manager, yikes

[solarmist]

“Thing is, Guess behaviors only work among a subset of other Guess people - ones who share a fairly specific set of expectations and signalling techniques. The farther you get from your own family and friends and subculture, the more you'll have to embrace Ask behavior. Otherwise you'll spend your life in a cloud of mild outrage at (pace Moomin fans) the Cluelessness of Everyone.”

The more diverse the people a guesser interacts with the more dysfunctional, as in not working how they intend, guess behavior becomes. If you need to interact with people who have even somewhat different values guess culture becomes unworkable.

[kolanos]

I actually think there's an inversion of ask/guess spectrum and it is the offer/guess spectrum.

To add on to a GP's example of the northern U.S. being predominantly an ask culture and the southern U.S. being a guess culture, I think the inverse is true for offering things as opposed to asking for them.

Southern hospitality is very much an offer culture. Whether you need or want something, it will be offered. The guess culture aspect of asking flips when it comes to offering. In the south it is widely considered rude to not impulsively offer even when you know you're likely going to get a "no".

However, in the north the reverse is true. Usually you will only be offered something when it is apparent that thing is wanted or needed. It is actually considered something of an imposition to be offered something you don't want or need.

In other words, I don't think you can just cast these cultures as high context and low context, it is more a case of where the culture places contextual importance.

[wwweston]

"Explicit vs Implicit" is more accurate and value neutral, and doesn't require anyone to load down the explicit side of the equation with generalized aspersions like "treating everything as a transaction."

There are advantages to explicit and implicit negotiation. There are situations in which either might be more graceful or necessary.

Most situations are probably best navigated with some degree of implicit negotiation first, paired with a layer of explicit interaction as a check.

> it's not about "Guessing", it's about understanding.

Asking is often a good way to make sure you actually understand.

"Guessing" may be an acceptable substitute to the extent your intuition doesn't have an error term.

[amerkhalid]

I am from guess culture, it is almost impossible for me to decipher needs of everyone and communicate my needs without asking. Unless those needs are very standard traditional needs like offering water to a guest, giving up seat for an elder etc. And it is not just me it seems everyone seems to misunderstand and everyone complains about others who didn't guess their needs correctly.

Using the example from article, the mover would be complaining about everyone who didn't guess that they needed help with moving and how they had given soup to all those people.

I really appreciate ask culture and find it much easier to navigate. It is so much easier to hangout with friends who can just ask for what they want or just say no. I have learned to ask but still find it stressful to say no.

Speaking of no, in my culture, apparently, no means, "ask me again I am just being polite, I will say yes after your ask me 3rd time."

[bee_rider]

The author mentions a couple times coming from a “guess” culture and adjusting to an “ask” one, so I think they are in some sense in favor of “ask,” at least in the workplace. I mean they are clearly trying to adopt some of the habits.

It is interesting—I think thoughtful people like the author tend to see the limitations of the habits they’ve grown up with, and the advantages of the ones they are trying to adopt. But of course both tendencies have advantages and disadvantages.

[opportune]

Asking isn’t necessarily transactional.

If I go to your house and ask for a glass of water, it’s because I’m thirsty and I know it’s NBD for you to get a glass and put water in it. I’m not expecting to give or get anything else in return, nor am I trying to be rude by insinuating you should have given me a glass of water. The thought process goes:

1. I am thirsty.

2. I don’t think it’s rude to ask for water since it’s effectively free and only requires you to have a clean glass to serve it in.

3. I ask for water.

Community and trust is all well and good, but most of my social circle are transplants from all over the country/world which all have different social mores. There is no common or universal social dance about how to behave when you want something from someone else or how you should be polite when you go hang out with someone in this kind of setting. And if someone does try to fit their specific background culture into such a setting in a way that makes it so they’re offended when I ask for water or a favor, it’s on them.

That’s not say I think Asking is “superior” but just that it’s not transactional so much as it is pragmatic (but potentially impolite) especially in certain situations, like socialization within a highly diverse-background group.

[another-dave]

What you've described sounds like the 'Guess culture' side to me — you're anticipating the impact on me & asking for something that you intuit is nbd.

Let's say though that you felt like a beer. Would you ask for one?

To me, it'd feel quite rude to ask for something like that (what if you don't have any, will it make you feel bad? What if you have some but you were saving them for something or they're very expensive?)

But from what I understand of what the author describes as Ask culture, it'd be seen as nbd for me to ask you for a beer and also no big deal for you to refuse it in turn.

[haterforhire]

The beer example is such a good one because no one really thinks it’s reasonable to ask for a beer without a shared context that beers happen in that particular relationship.

“Ask culture” people, in the context of a shared relationship, are just kind of assholes. Ask culture means “I ask for shit without a legitimate understanding that it is an acceptable request”.

(Obviously when you do not share culture or a relationship you must ask. But you should ask questions that let you understand the culture, and observe instead of act. Or, you know… just be an asshole.)

[blargey]

> What this culture really wants is for you to pay attention and understand the people around you

This sort of framing highlights the worst case scenario of "guess" culture imo. Where members assume that outsiders to the "guess" culture only need to "pay attention" to pick up on all the right norms and assimilate into the community that they spent decades growing up in (and that everyone ought to, in the first place, because the "guess" culture considers itself the necessary consequence of virtues like trust and caring). Which leads to great offense being taken when people don't adhere.

[xeromal]

I think that guess culture has attuned me to knowing when I need to include a quiet person into a conversation or to check in on my neighbor when I notice they seem down. Reading people is an undervalued skill that was honed in my guess culture upbringing.

[sircastor]

What term would you use to describe it? Respectfully, I think you're projecting an opinion onto it. There's no inherent value in the word "Guess". A "guess" culture isn't without transactional interactions, it's just shifted the transaction to implicit expectations instead of explicit.

[sh1mmer]

I feel like “Ask” vs “Sense” would be a better term.

I’ve found this a lot in relationships where partners where a high bar is expected for how well I can to intuit their current state. “If I have to say it, it’s not romantic”, etc.

I think I tend to fall somewhere in the middle between the two extremes. Being able to ask is feels good, giving and getting feedback feels good, but having someone not care about being aware of where I am at (or factoring that in) doesn’t feel good.

[sfg]

I've never heard of asking vs guessing culture before and don't know much about them, but, based on the article, I'd say guessing looks more transactional. It uses a shared history and remembers past favours ("I gave him soup, so I can seek to get his van", as the example in the article had it), which is really an implicit transaction without guarantee the other side will meet their end.

I am not even sure transactions are possible in asking culture, as it looks stateless. Askers just broadcast needs without reference to any past event, such as a favour.

This might be an equivocation, but, funnily enough, you said guessing is about understanding and for people to have an understanding is a way of saying they have a transaction (often implicit). For instance, "I gave him a pass on that, so now we have an understanding that I can do this".

[samus]

People in "ask" culture can provide context to their request, in effect making it transactional again. That works best if parties are not in a close relationship with each other, else the communication is already more contextual and "guess"-like than with loose acquaintances.

[superfrank]

I've never heard these terms before, but I've known about this concept for a while and I've always used "implicit" and "explicit" as my descriptors for the two different approaches, which I feel have less negative connotations.

[davideg]

I appreciate you calling this out! In my community we started talking about it as "Ask" vs "Attune" culture. On the one hand do you assume everyone will be explicit with their wants, needs, and boundaries? On the other, do you pay attention to who you're engaging with, their general disposition, their communication style preferences, etc?

I personally like to keep a balance between the two extremes and try to adapt my behavior to who I'm engaging with (you can tell I'm comfortable in an "Attune" culture environment, but I appreciate when people are up front and communicative about their needs, wants, and boundaries). Considering the power differentials at play and the ability for someone to enforce their true boundaries is really important to me, and also having meta conversations to encourage folks to speak up about their needs and boundaries.

In a work context, I will have a meta conversation with someone about their preferred communication style, how they want to receive feedback, how they want to be checked in with, etc. to avoid mismatched communication expectations.

[zestyping]

Exactly. "Asking" is about communicating, and "Guessing" is about understanding.

Being aware of other people's needs matters. Expressing your own needs matters. Both are important skills, and if you completely refuse responsibility for one of them you're going to be in for a hard time.

[xyzelement]

I grew up in the guess mode but I disagree with you.

People guess and assume wrongly all the time despite their best intentions. It's not transactional to ask on a long shot - at least it doesn't have to be. Obviously don't be annoying, don't ask people for what you know will put them out or make them feel awkward. But in absence of signal - send your signal and let it play out.

[DoreenMichele]

My impression was that Guess culture was viewed more favorably by most people. Ask culture is often viewed by others as rude, crude and socially unacceptable.

But that may be due in part to where I learned the phrasing.

Does anyone know where the phrasing comes from? I know where I first saw it and it was my impression that was the "birth" of the phrase, but I don't actually know if that's true or not.

[mock-possum]

I think it’s more guess versus know - if you don’t ask, you can only guess, you can’t know. If you ask, then you know. That’s all there is to it. You can pay all the attention you like and still get it wrong - but if you ask, you can’t get it wrong, because you’ll have been told what’s right.

If your goal is to get it right, then you need to ask, guessing isn’t good enough.

[xbar]

I read it this way, too. In fact, I found the whole thing to be an apology for the continued expansion of asking for more than is reasonable among those who refuse to learn concern for others, or worse, social cues in a given culture.

The "culture" of making truly unreasonable requests of others is, by my reading, culture-less.

[moffkalast]

I'm not sure if I see it that way, both extremes equally lead to dysfunctional interactions.

You shouldn't feel bad for asking for help when you need it and other people haven't noticed it, and it's good to be mindful of those around you and what they need. A balance of both should be healthy.

[ubermonkey]

That framing is at least as bad as the framing you project on the Ask/Guess split.

Clearer communication is always better.

[johnnyjeans]

Maybe "Inquire vs Infer" is better?

[ericls]

Trust sounds good but is based not knowing.

[LinXitoW]

But most askers can still implement some level of guessing, and fall back to asking to clear up any misunderstandings. Guesser CANNOT. Asking is superior.

And it is guessing, because at some point it requires mind reading to accommodate. Again, most askers still understand, they are just sane enough to understand that mind reading is impossible.