[jeroenhd]

This is a good argument for protecting titles like "engineer". Programmers love calling themselves engineers, but they'd better be careful in places where there are consequences attached to the term.

The system is useless without protections in place to prevent it from becoming a racket, but I'm not opposed to such a system.

[gnabgib]

It *is* protected where this fellow practised. It's also a 5yo story. You can't be an engineer in Canada without being held to the same values (it's a regulated title[0]). Much to the chagrin of boot-camps, and US employers.

[0]: https://engineerscanada.ca/publications/public-guideline-on-...

[petermcneeley]

Also we also have pEng which means professional engineer. Most of the Software Engineers in Canada (even though with actually engineering degrees) are not professional engineers.

[jeroenhd]

I know, that's why the suspension was possible in the first place.

[dudul]

That would do nothing if so called engineers are not given the "power" to refuse to implement something when they are ordered to by their PM.

[jeroenhd]

Do you think normal engineers have any more power than a programmer? In the end, they're employees for a business, with a boss breathing down their neck to just sign off already.

[abduhl]

All at will employees have the power to refuse to implement something when ordered to by their PM. Quit. “I was just following orders” doesn’t even fly for situations where refusal can get you strung up for treason.

[ryandrake]

I have in the past successfully pushed back and refused to work on projects I thought were ethically fraught. Problem is, your company will just say "Sure! No problem! We take care of our developers here at Initech! Jimmy, two desks down, would be happy to write that code!" So the problematic software always gets implemented, despite one person's objection. Because we have jerks like Jimmy.

[jeroenhd]

But in that case, if the project turns out to be illegal or harm people, Jimmy would be on the hook and not you.

Jimmy can be a jerk, but he'll be careful if he'd risk being employed in his home state if he signs off on something he should know is unacceptable.

[abduhl]

If my greatest accomplishment in life is that I wasn’t Jimmy then I guess I’d die pretty proud of that.

[tekla]

Oh yes. Software engineers are drones that are unable to refuse to do things they believe are unsafe.

[dudul]

Software engineers have kids to feed.

[arcticfox]

> Programmers love calling themselves engineers, but they'd better be careful in places where there are consequences attached to the term.

At least in the US, you can refer to this case where the state of Oregon tried to be as anal about the word "engineer" as you suggest and got slapped down. The whole case was a lot of fun because not only was the engineering board using unconstitutional restrictions of free speech, they were on the provably wrong side of an engineering argument while doing it, demonstrating just how stupid the attempted restriction of speech was in that case.

https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...

Perhaps in places where there is no First Amendment equivalent your suggestion holds weight.

[jeroenhd]

I suppose it can't work in the USA, then. The American idea of freedom of speech is pretty unique, though, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem in most of the (free) world.

[arcticfox]

Ironically, the (electrical) engineer who had his free speech rights protected in the case was Swedish. And the (correct) argument he was ultimately allowed to make in Oregon triggered an update in international guidance on traffic light timing. So the rest of the (free) world will actually benefit regardless!

https://www.ite.org/technical-resources/topics/traffic-engin...

[lostlogin]

> This is a good argument for protecting titles like "engineer".

That battle was lost long ago. I saw a truck driver by a ‘tree surgeon’ the other day.

[conductr]

Tree Surgeons is the name of the company that trims my trees. They do employ arborists which is slightly above landscaper in qualifications