[atchoo]

It's worth bearing in mind that the West was pretty awful too with a vast quantity of appalling crimes that our rose-tinted spectacles might like to forget because the victims were "non-people". It was Imperial Britain with it's colonies, the US with it's viciously racist segregation, Leopold II of Belgium chopping of limbs in the Congo. Not cool.

It's not difficult to see that the early Soviet Union was actually better on a number of dimensions over both the Tsars and the West on basic equality and humanity when comparing against the life of an Indian or an African American. It had decriminalized homosexuality and was arguably less anti-Semitic than the West. The trajectory was utopian... but it nosedived into Stalinism which was, well..., a nightmare.

[XorNot]

Ehhh...it's not like Lenin was much better. As soon as he was in power, he pretty rapidly got to "actually we should do some purges".

The history of Russia is one of an endless parade of terrible leadership which invariably decides that a quick round of death squads will solve all the problems.

Their biggest effect was external: most welfare systems were started in the West in response to the observation that it was a bad look for capitalism if people were starving in the streets, whereas ultimately the USSR liked to pretend they fixed that while just doing it to the Ukrainians, Polish and other Baltic states.

[atchoo]

> Ehhh...it's not like Lenin was much better.

No. Claiming this underplays how appalling Stalin was. Lenin purging Mensheviks AFAIK, meant losing party membership and maybe emigrating to continue your political project, whereas Stalin's Great Purge killed a million people. This isn't a defence of Lenin, it's just that Stalin was on a different level entirely.

> Their biggest effect was external: most welfare systems were started in the West in response to the observation that it was a bad look for capitalism

What? That's nonsense.

[systems_glitch]

Remember, Lenin established the tools Stalin used. The GULAG system, the string of secret police organizations starting with the Cheka, etc...

[BirAdam]

This is kind of the basis of small-government advocacy. Whatever good the current person may do with said power, it is unlikely that the next person will be so benevolent.

[systems_glitch]

Indeed, and powers are almost never voluntarily given up.

[atchoo]

Yes?

Forced labour camps and secret police organisations were pretty ubiquitous. The Tsars had The Okhrana, forced labour camps and political repression (Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin had all been exiled to Siberia). The Checka and Gulag were the Bolshevik versions of the same thing. Russia had the White Terror... and then the Red Terror. It all fucking sucks but the point remains, Stalin took things to new levels of psychopathic insanity where we start hitting 10s of millions of excess deaths.

If you don't like Gulags, then bear in mind they were created at roughly the same time the US setup forced labour camps in Haiti that led to 1000s of deaths and extra-judicial killings. Not something Americans talk about much. Should Woodrow Wilson be compared to Stalin too?

[systems_glitch]

Yeah, fair point. Not to cast off the notion of personal responsibility for actions, but IMO monstrous individuals are a when, not an if, when the preconditions exist like that.

I don't know why I keep hoping mgmt will see that one day and decide not to have pretty bad things now that some later nutjob can turn into really especially bad things. It's not much of an up-side that the people who built the tools are often consumed by them.

[codexb]

The difference is that there was never any widespread taboo against criticizing the west's transgressions.