[hammock]

If it looks anything like government and union-run public schools, not good.

For example, Chicago public school teachers get paid more than any other school system in the US (from $60k for a new teacher to $114k for the most experienced) and the schools have some of, if not the worst educational outcomes: in 2019, 1 in 4 7th graders could not read at grade level

[tptacek]

CPS teachers are not in fact paid more than every other school system; NYC and LA pay more on average, and if you adjust for cost of living, Cleveland is a better deal. Meanwhile: the big sticking points with the CPS unions --- of which I am not a fan --- are class size and support staff, which are not pocket-lining issues for the teachers.

[kasey_junk]

The CPS unions have made lots of things negotiating positions in the last few years, from school nurses and social workers to veteran teacher pay scales and disciplinary rights. Classifying their position one way or another is impossible.

If anything the CTU has been doing everything in their power to make sure the real problem, pensions, is never on the bargaining table. They are argument #1 against public employee unions if only because they are so obviously hosing their current members on behalf of their previous and soon to be previous members.

That said your broader point still stands, there is nothing strange about their compensation or outcomes when compared to peer organizations.

[Contusion3532]

Maybe the problems in Chicago's education are outside of the scope of the teachers?

[NoZebra120vClip]

Problems in educating young children often begin with the family at home, who don't care, won't participate in discipline, and raise a hue and cry every time a teacher wants a better life for the child.

[Auracle]

I think it’s a bit of A and B.

Children aren’t a blank slate when they get into school. Genetics, parenting, and culture all have an effect.

That said, the fact that teachers that make tenure basically can’t get fired for lack of performance is ridiculous. Imagine if you just had to be a good little coder for a few years, and after that as long as you put any amount of effort in at all you wouldn’t lose your job.

I certainly had teachers growing up that were terrible at their jobs. I also had some that were pretty good. Most were mediocre to the point where I don’t think they’d stay employed in a regular non-union type job. At the very least they wouldn’t be getting performance raises.

[dagw]

the fact that teachers that make tenure basically can’t get fired for lack of performance is ridiculous

Had a friend who worked in one of the worst performing public schools in our city. According to him the main problem was that you simply couldn't keep good teachers no matter what you offered. Half the new teachers they hired didn't make it past the first year. Had they started firing teachers who underperformed on top of that they wouldn't have enough teachers left to keep the doors open.

edit: not disagreeing with the idea that tenure for teachers is a bad idea, just that I don't think that is the primary problem in these worst cases.

[tyoma]

Chicago public school are extremely effective given the population they have to teach: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/05/upshot/a-bett...

The core problem is poverty, not the school system.

[osigurdson]

Agree. Give governments money, get less back now with strings attached.