[jprete]

Set phrases aren’t consciously created, they’re the accumulated contextual/cultural meaning that people remember for the phrase, until people no longer use it to point at the literal meaning. If some group always drinks coffee and never tea, then eventually “strong hot drink” means “coffee”, and an outsider who asks for their own group’s “strong hot drink” (always meaning tea) is going to get a bitter surprise.

[tgv]

Same goes for accents. Any group will develop an accent, and it will be dominated by the group's native accent. Toki Pona won't be able to escape those, not even at small scale. I also predict the inclusion of loan words, should the language ever go beyond purists.

[Brian_K_White]

I don't think they would be surprised, since anyone having used the language enough to get to that point would know how it works, and they would know that they are not in their usual context.

It's like leaving out units of measure. We sometimes omit them, but we practically never lose track of when it makes sense to or have to consciously think about it.

[baq]

The first time my ~3 yo daughter saw the sea she exclaimed 'POOL!' Make of this what you wish ;)

[Brian_K_White]

I have a convertible. My nephew in law? (Wife's brothers son, now I wonder how you express that in Toki, you don't bother, he's just young relative maybe?) had seen that car when I visit several times over the course of a few years, and it just happened that in his entire short life up to then, he had never seen it with the top up.

One day we show up with the top up.

We're inside and he comes in to tell his parents my car has "a cover or shield"

I don't know why but we all love this.

[argiopetech]

That's just a newphew, in the same way that my brother in law is my daughter's uncle.

[uxamanda]

Nice example of when a typo expresses the idea better. :-D

[esperent]

How would you differentiate between black tea and coffee in toki pona?

[Brian_K_White]

I think the idea is you don't bother to unless it actually matters in a given situation, and when it does, you just add more words.

Probably writers get this more easily. I think they are trained and edited constantly to avoid unnecessary fluff, and identify what is pointful atmospheric detail and what it pointless detail.

Does the story actually change depending on what drink dad enjoyed with his morning paper? Maybe if it was spiked, or if it was a pointed aspect of his character that he drank chocolate which others find childish, and he knows it and doesn't care. So it could, but in 99% of scenes I don't think it does matter, it only matters that it's a common thing that people do, and a common setting prop. If the language were not English and the standard way to say "morning coffee" was something else instead of specifically coffee, the scenes and stories all function exactly the same.

[aidenn0]

Reminds me of the old meme that a Vanilla Soy Latte is a 3-bean stew.

[esperent]

> I think the idea is you don't bother to unless it actually matters in a given situation, and when it does, you just add more words

Yes I understand that. Vietnamese works a bit like this although with a far less limited vocabulary.

I was asking about the specific case where it does matter. How complicated is it to differentiate between these two similar drinks when the difference is important?

[Brian_K_White]

Probably painfully, like the full real scientific names for chemical compounds and biological species, where there are hudreds or even thousands of variations of things.

I would imagine that in a system like this, you end up adding only the particular extra detail that matters at the time, and so you almost never say quite the same thing as what we mean by "coffee".

Instead it would be just "drink" most of the time (and for all I know maybe even that is too specific and it's really just "liquid" or "liquid food", but anyway...)

And then when you come in from shovelling snow, your partner has "hot drink" ready for you, because "hot" is the extra property that matters.

And when you get up in the morning, you want "invogorating drink" to get going, because "invogorating" is the extra detail that matters. (setting aside that I bet "invogorating" is NOT one of the precious few 120 available words, but there will be something like active or up or positive or fast)

And rarely bother trying to express all the of the bag of properties that "coffee" conveys.

And if you DO once in a while, maybe that is not so different from English anyway.

"a steaming hot mug of black coffee" is a lot of syllables, and we would say all of that in English if we happened to want to express all of those facets, so maybe it's not all that different?

[traverseda]

No word for beans but "kasi" means (leaf, herb, wood, plant), or maybe you have a green tea, "jelo" mean (yellow, light green).

[reverius42]

Not a Toki Pona speaker (yet), but I'd guess some variation/inclusion of "liquid from leaf" vs. "liquid from bean".

[esperent]

There's no specific word or term for either leaf or bean though.

[worldsayshi]

Could you add a phrase for beans in there?

[brabel]

When you ask for "a cup of coffee" in different countries, you may also get pretty surprised at what you get (it may be a tiny cup, or a large glass, sugary or bitter, with milk or without...).

[Xorakios]

not even just countries - my family from California visited NYC and kept getting frustrated when they said just wanted a "regular coffee," until someone finally realized they meant "black coffee" and it was racist to say black, so they had to order "plain coffee, no milk or sugar"

[kwhitefoot]

But you probably will get coffee.