[PaulDavisThe1st]

And in what sense are we better off for this?

Is the claim that innovation only happens in the USA? That the only good companies are US companies? What are the specific benefits, other than merely indulging the startup fantasies of a relatively small number of founders, that come from this "high risk, high reward" environment?

[lotsofmoney]

An insane amount of money, world hegemony, and a very high standard of living. I’m not sure the average European appreciates just how comfortable life in the US is. And the average American doesn’t know that things they take fir granted are luxuries even to Western Europeans. Outside of a handful of small countries with specialized economies, European income per capita is at or below per capita income in even the poorest US state. Even the vast majority of poor people here have iPhones and cars and can afford to run their air conditioners at 68F all day.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

Insane amount of money: Of the 10 countries with the highest median income, 7 of them are European. By some measures, the USA is-midpack, with Norway/Canada very similar to us, but missing most of the entrepeneurial/VC culture of the USA.

World hegemony: mostly a function of the post-WWII situation, combined with our willingness to spend absolutely insane amounts on our military and use it to impose or at minimum encourage US interests globally.

Very high standard of living: the US has one of the highest GINI coefficients world wide, so only a median comparison (which is quite hard to develop) really conveys the differences accurately. Large swaths of the USA (notably Appalachia and also the desert southwest) have a substantially lower median standard of living than most of Europe.

Anyway, even if your claims about the USA were true, that by itself doesn't connect them to the VC risk/reward culture under discussion.

[lewiscarson]

You cannot be serious, this has to be a troll. By pretty much every quality of life index most European countries (esp Western European) rank higher than US. Why do Americans group Europe into one chunk like this? And what exactly is the benefit of income per capita when the environment you have to spend it in isn’t as nice as 90% of European cities/towns?

[theGnuMe]

I think you are mistaken. Watch this: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/growing-up-po...

[adwn]

> * And the average American doesn’t know that things they take fir granted are luxuries even to Western Europeans.*

Such as? Name three examples, please. "smartphones and cars" doesn't cut it, those are pretty common even for low income citizens here in Germany at least, and we don't really need air conditioners on account of being located in higher latitudes – everyone has heating, though.

[sneak]

High quality food delivery (at any time, but especially after 22:00). 24 hour pharmacies. 24 hour grocery stores. Air conditioning. Cheap gas. Road trips where you have a personal vehicle when you arrive. Hot water in 100% of all handwashing sinks. Urgent care centers. Whole Foods.

You're 100% wrong about not needing air conditioning in Germany. Many of the last 45 days here have been above 24C. You're just used to being sweaty and uncomfortable.

A doctor who worked at Charite in Berlin told me last month that the whole summer he worked there he struggled to not drip sweat directly into patients as he leaned over them to work.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

> High quality food delivery (at any time...)

In the largest cities, perhaps. Don't try that in Santa Fe. For that matter, don't try it in Philadelphia, at least not after 23:00)

> 24 hour [...]

An unusual feature of western US grocery stores (not generally replicated in the midwest or east coast as a whole, though it is spreading). Not common in smaller cities or towns. 24 pharmacies are useful, but many large cities in western Europe have a few, and many small cities and towns in the USA do not.

> Cheap gas

A function of US vs. EU tax policy, nothing more (or less)

> Road trips etc.

Entirely possible in the EU and eminently common. The difference is that for many trips, you have the choice to do it the other way too, which is not feasible in the USA for most destinations.

Not only that, but if you choose to travel in a camper, in EU you have a plethora of dirt cheap places to legally pull in overnight that have bathrooms and if you need it water & electric. Essentially absent from the US.

> Hot water in sinks.

Not present in many gas station and campsite handwashing sinks.

> Whole Foods

Present in several cities across the UK. But you cannot be serious. I mean, I shop more or less 100% at WFM, but I can shop just as well, if not better, in the UK or Germany or France.

AGAIN, I ask: what is the evidence that any of this is connected the high risk/high reward entrepeneurial/VC culture of the USA? You seem to just be listing a set of things you like about the USA and waving your hands as if to say "it's all because of the entrepeneurial culture".

[novok]

Walmart is effectively that for US camper travelers. Maybe not free water & electricity, but I don't think that is anywhere, you have to pay for that.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

Many states and municipalities have banned overnight parking at Walmart. The idea that you can always do this is now more of a legend than reality.

Some states allow interstate rest areas to be used this way, but apart from a handful, that means dealing with the noise of tractor/trailer combos running their engines all night for heat or a/c (very unpleasant).

[qwytw]

Aside from 24 hours pharmacies/grocery stores and cheap gas none of those things seem particularly inaccessible in Europe.

If we want to focus on air conditioners this much it seems to me that he issue isn't that people can't afford them it's that it's very hard to get one installed if you live in an apartment building (because they weren't designed for that and due to all kinds of rules and regulation). Many people living in detached houses can easily get one without having their children skip lunch.

> Many of the last 45 days here have been above 24C

Depends on the house thick walls are pretty good in keeping heat out in summer.

[DoughnutHole]

Most of these are cultural/political choices, not a result of some lack of prosperity.

Less cheap gas is a result of taxing the negative externalities of fossil fuels. Air con is rarer because intense summer heat (while it happens) is less pervasive and extreme than in most of the US. Personal vehicles are less common because public transport is great. No “Whole Foods” because good produce is common in regular supermarkets.

“Road trips” is the most hilarious point. I can hop on a train and be in one of several countries with a different culture and language in an hour.

[injb]

The food comment is frankly bizarre. The food you get in Whole Foods is at best similar to what you find in a petrol station in Europe. The US has the worst food in the developed world.

[aapl88889]

That is not remotely true. Petrol stations in Europe do not sell grass-fed beef, acai bowls and organic produce. They're like 7-11 not Whole Foods. The US has more variety by far.

[injb]

To the extent that petrol stations are like convenience stores (which they typically are), the ones in my European country sell freshly baked bread, pastries etc. and have deli and hot food counters (and yes the beef they sell there is all grass fed). They also sell fresh fruit and while I don't know what's considered "unorganic" when it comes to this, it's all similar to the so-called "organic" stuff at whole foods. I don't know about variety but that isn't what I was talking about, I was talking about quality.

One time I was in a Walmart Supercenter (or whatever it is they call the huge ones) in Michigan. I had been there a few times but I couldn't find the fruit & veg section any more, they seemed to have moved it and put Halloween candy in it's place. After burning 10-15 minutes searching the whole store, I gave up and asked a staff member where they put it. "Oh we got rid of that sorry". It's literally the biggest supermarket in the city and you can't buy an apple or a banana.

There was a fancier place I used to go to in that city, Fresh-something-or-other. The kind that models themselves after Whole Foods. Everything time I went there, they only ever had green bananas. I mean, totally inedible, days away from being ripe. Every time.

[antisthenes]

> Petrol stations in Europe do not sell grass-fed beef, acai bowls and organic produce.

Honestly can't tell if this is satire or not. To think that you can reduce the food argument to the availability of _grass fed beef_ at a gas station?

[qwytw]

> The US has the worst food in the developed world.

How did you come to that conclusion? I mean are you talking about taste preferences or about the quality.

Because quality wise it seems that there is quite a bit more variability in the US than in some nicer European countries like France, Spain, Italy and some chains in Britain and other countries (EE OTH is not that great even when comparing to the US...) but in general you can find "high quality" food if you look for it.

[wlesieutre]

24 hour grocery stores aren’t that common. Walmart used to be known for being open all the time but they mostly close at 11:00 now.

For the Americans, 24C means “many days have been above 75F” which I don’t think is going to get a lot of sympathy.

[allarm]

> High quality food delivery…

Funny thing is that you’ve described Moscow here.

> You're 100% wrong about not needing air conditioning in Germany.

I realize that for an average American Germany is just a point on the map, but here in the north we had only a couple of hot days this summer. Otherwise - a truly horrifying story.

[Gunnerhead]

> Funny thing is that you’ve described Moscow here.

Please do tell more. I’m curious to learn.

[allarm]

[note: I'm writing this from the perspective of Moscow and Russia 10 years ago] Basically, Moscow has (had?) everything that op mentioned - cheap gas, cheap (and fast) Internet, relatively cheap and quality medicine, huge variety of food delivery (very fast and quite cheap), etc. On top of that Moscow has an incredible subway system, multiple car sharing options, it is clean and relatively safe. I've traveled a lot and lived in multiple countries during my life, and the services they had in Moscow were better than i.e. in Germany or Singapore. Having said that I don't miss Moscow a little bit. Everything comes with a cost and the price of living standards in Moscow is being paid by the rest of Russia.

[jen20]

> Outside of a handful of small countries with specialized economies, European income per capita is at or below per capita income in even the poorest US state.

And yet the quality of life doesn’t even begin to compare.

[aapl88889]

My friend has a huge 4,000 sq foot brand new house in the South for 1/3 the average price in London. You cannot find that type of house even in the richest areas in Europe.

[jen20]

Here’s [1] one of dozens of houses of that size currently listed in Bath.

As a European who also lives in a 4000 sqft brand new house in the south of the US, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone though. I’d happily take a 2000sqft house that was built at least to the standard of the second of the three little pigs, something which seems to elude construction crews south of the Mason-Dixon Line.

Regardless though, the size of your house says very little about the quality of your life.

[1]: https://www.winkworth.co.uk/properties/sales/lansdown-road-b...

[Epa095]

I don't know how amazing your friends house is, but while a 371 square meters house IS large, it's not absurdly large. And of course you find houses like that, whatever it is, in Europe.

But North America is fricking huge, and if you are willing to move out of the city it's hard to not grant you that at least: you have a loot of room.

[jamesaurichs]

We get more rockets (literally), faster.

We get Tesla, SpaceX, Google, Facebook, AirBnB, Stripe, etc...

[hardware2win]

AirBnB is innovative tech?

[satvikpendem]

It sure makes it easy for me to travel, so yes, it's innovative enough for me and likely for all their other customers too.

[hardware2win]

Innovative tech, not innovative at all

[AndrewKemendo]

Said another way, America is the sandbox for the rich to experiment on the poor, with technology that may or may not be good for the poor but ultimately doesn’t matter because the ultimate winner is always the one funding them.

It’s the test and staging servers for global capitalism

[opportune]

Those companies have generated hundreds of thousands of extremely high paying jobs because hundreds of millions of consumers/many businesses chose to give them money.

[jamesaurichs]

Tesla creates American jobs for the poor to work in manufacturing

SpaceX creates aspiration for the poor

Google allows the poor to advertise their product to anyone in the world cheaply

Facebook allows the poor to market their product to anyone in the world cheaply

AirBnB allows the poor to live in an expensive city, cheaply

Stripe allows the poor to sell their product to anyone in the world cheaply

[dns_snek]

> SpaceX creates aspiration for the poor

> AirBnB allows the poor to live in an expensive city, cheaply

Yeah you're definitely trolling, not cool... or your definition of "the poor" includes people with net worth of $10M.

[croes]

And still people can't afford to buy house like their parents did.

Maybe the problem isn't jobs but wealth distribution.

[SideQuark]

People are buying vastly bigger houses than their parents did. Adjusted for inflation, and most importantly, for square footage, median US housing costs are quite flat. Last I ran the numbers, per sq foot, prices are slightly lower than in the past.

Run them yourself, then check back.

[ipaddr]

What poor person works for Telsa?

What poor person gets aspiration because of Spacex. A basketball player is cheaper and does a better job inspiring.

The poor cannot afford to run adwords campaigns and can't even get a credit card.

Facebooks ads even more expensive.

The poor are not looking for short term rentals and cannot afford to live in the most expensive cities using airbnb. They live in rundown rent controlled places.

Paypal allows the poor to buy/sell.

[theGnuMe]

You missed the AirBnB effect of driving rents up and kicking poor people out of apartments.

[SideQuark]

The poor in America are richer than the poor in just about any other country. The US poverty line is around the top 15% of world incomes, and that's pre tax transfers. Post tax transfers puts them much higher.

[PhilipRoman]

But is that before or after adjusting for cost of living?

[SideQuark]

After. It's PPP adjusted, as all good economists would do.

[k4rli]

Musk's businesses, Google/Meta/Airbnb have arguably only been harmful and we would be better off if they didn't exist.

[squeaky-clean]

> other than merely indulging the startup fantasies of a relatively small number of founders

Why can't this be the claim and be the end of it?

"I have a startup idea"

"Do you live in the USA?"

"No"

"Well it's going to stay as a idea"

" :( "

[mustafa_pasi]

Higher economic growth, better higher paying jobs and more wealth to go around.