[msh]

But it comparison the blog makes between religion in GoT and the Middle Ages don't make sense. In GoT we are explicitly told that the "church" was deliberately culled and broken by the kings back when they had dragons and only survived on the kings mercy, it might make sense that this could have lessened belief in religion. We are not told what religion the dragon lords had, but apparently they took over the local beliefs after breaking the "church".

I also don't see how a army with allegiances to noble houses must defer to tradition and religion, how would you then explain a king converting to christianity (or the other way)?

[the_af]

> But it comparison the blog makes between religion in GoT and the Middle Ages don't make sense

Why then would GRRM claim his Westeros was "to be strongly grounded in history and to show what medieval society was like" then? A society with the church "broken" by the kings and without any religion to supplant it wouldn't be like medieval society at all!

It would make more sense for GRRM to claim his take is transposing modern sensibilities to a fantasy middle ages world. That would work. His characters are cynical like a modern person would be, rather than like a medieval person. But GRRM is not claiming this as his intent, which is a pity.

> I also don't see how a army with allegiances to noble houses must defer to tradition and religion, how would you then explain a king converting to christianity (or the other way)?

Well, what religion did Cersei claim was the true one then? Kings and queens converted to other religions, they didn't become atheists. And frequently this was divisive anyway, sometimes leading to civil war. And let's remember that Cersei was already on shaky grounds, she was a humiliated woman whom people didn't respect and were stoning moments ago! An already unpopular woman burns down the most important religious building and ascends to queendom on which grounds exactly?

Which gods should the Lannisters pray to, now that Cersei destroyed the Sept? Are they not deeply religious, like in true medieval society?

[msh]

I think you are looking for another kind of realism than what the books have. If it was a one to one society with our Middle Ages why would it not take place in our world.

GoT have a world with magic and dragons, I think it would be completely unrealistic if that world ended up with a religious life exactly as ours in the Middle Ages.

[the_af]

> I think you are looking for another kind of realism than what the books have

Again, let me stress this is ACOUP's opinions, not mine. I do find them convincing, though.

> GoT have a world with magic and dragons, I think it would be completely unrealistic if that world ended up with a religious life exactly as ours in the Middle Ages.

George Martin himself waves away this explanation, that because "it has dragons" then it cannot be realistic, consistent (which mind you, GoT is NOT) or follow the conventions of medieval society. (I cannot find the exact quote, but I'm sure you can if you search the web).

It's not that GoT doesn't fashion a religious/family/feudal life exactly like in our real middle ages -- it's just that he consistently deviates from it so that the end result is less realistic than the romantic epic of Lord of the Rings, while also at the same time claiming his vision is more realistic! And he did claim this.

He claims to have based the Dothraki on the Huns, Mongols and other steppe people, yet they behave nothing at all like them.

He claims to have based the Faith of the Seven on the Catholic Church, yet nobles don't treat it like such and they even blow up the Sept with no serious repercussions.

Westerosi are skeptical of gods and the supernatural, when in the real Middle Ages most would believe in both. In fact, it's almost like Westerosi have a modern mindset, rather than a medieval one!

And so on and on.

[msh]

I think we are using different definitions of realistic. If you take the meaning that realistic is that the world should be as in our Middle Ages you are right, if you take realistic as showing how things would a more practical look at how the world of GoT would be I think the above does not really matter.

[the_af]

But the thing is, the world of GoT isn't a realistic depiction of how medieval society would mutate due to dragons and zombies; it has so many divergences that George Martin's claim to be depicting a more realistic medieval society than in other fantasy worlds just does not hold. Like ACOUP points out, Westerns looks more like the Renaissance or even Victorian England.

It's not just religion (which, by the way: why do the dragon-riding Targaryens also do NOT believe in zombies or gods?).

It's also the feudal system. It didn't work like in GoT, as Brett from ACOUP shows. Medieval tactics (without dragons, how much of the battles happen in the books and show) don't work like that either. The bannermen system cannot sustain such large armies. Kings didn't randomly mistreat their populations. Logistics don't work like in GoT -- and that's current real world logistics, not even medieval! Steppe people weren't like the Dothraki. And so on and on.

Martin's world is pretty cool (to me, anyway) but is in no way more "realistic" than the Disneyland worlds he complains against.

[aragilar]

That sounds like a no true scotsman argument to me. Given popular culture's tendency to already get things significantly wrong, claiming the mantle of "realistic" shouldn't have the level set at "eh, it kinda fine" (which is treating GoT very leniently).

[msh]

But how would you define realistic for a fantasy world?

You can't expect people to believe as they would in our world, given that their world is different. If invaders with dragons took over England in our Middle Ages and crushed the church, peoples religion would realistically also evolve very differently from what it actually did.