[camgunz]

I think the typical rejoinder here is Germany's denazification. There's a difference between preemptively censoring things and deciding some things are just wrong and not worth debating for the umpteenth time.

FWIW we preemptively censor things all the time. Information is classified, we don't let you post plans to build nuclear or biological weapons, etc. And to broaden a little, we also have lots of speech restrictions and compulsions. Fraud is against the law and that's largely speech. Inciting imminent lawless action isn't allowed. We require nutrition facts on products, we require doctors to say things before performing abortions, we compel testimony, etc. I personally wouldn't like it if you posted my address and when I'm likely to be away.

Speech is complicated, it's powerful, fundamental, and there are a lot of competing interests and principles.

[Brian_K_White]

What does wrongness have to do with anything?

No one in Germany studies the history of Nazis and how they came to be?

[camgunz]

Germany doesn't censor any mention of Nazism; they censor support for Nazism.

[Brian_K_White]

That is reassuringly sane.

So who said anything about supporting?

That was my whole original point, that if something is bad, it's if anything even more important not to censor information about it, not so thoroughly that it is actually removed from active and specific searches at least.

That absolutely includes things that advocate, because those very statements are the bad thing that needs to be seen to be believed and understood.

You can't just tell some kid who wasn't there "He rose to power and killed millions of Jews." It makes no sense and teaches no lesson. You have to show the crowd-pleasing speeches and other pro-nazi propaganda to show how attractive a bad thing can sound, to show how totally good and normal people just like you can end up cooperating with something wrong, to study and understand that aspect of the badness.

Some people will study that so they can then do it, but I don't see how that changes anything because we're right back to ignorance is no answer. Making everyone else ignorant is even worse. It creates even more victims than the one actually doing something bad.

[camgunz]

> You have to show the crowd-pleasing speeches and other pro-nazi propaganda

They do. You just can't deny the holocaust, spread anti-semitism, etc. [0]

My point, which I admittedly obscured, is that while there are things we censor and compel (which we mostly agree on), there are weirdly some things we don't censor that we also mostly agree on.

Anti-semitism is a good example. There's no value in talking about it. Anti-semitic hate groups use the shield of freedom of speech to spread their lies and recruit members. Proponents will spam forums, WhatsApp groups, social media, etc in what is effectively a DDoS on fact checkers. The thing that fixes anti-semitism isn't letting them say whatever they want wherever they want, it's a Wikipedia page on anti-semitism and a ban everywhere else.

It's also worth saying that while we're having a relatively academic debate, Jewish people, Black people, trans people, etc get to wade through a morass of hate on the internet which every so often leads to a mass murder. What's the value of that?

[0]: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/germanys-laws-ant...

[Brian_K_White]

"You can't say this thing"

Is and entirely different thing than

"You can't see this thing"

I guess people are deciding that linking is saying rather than merely referencing.

Even if so, it just means that the need to be able to reference is more important than the need to hide a few of the unwanted things that manage to get said. Anything else is simply not sane, as in, not functional. Even if everyone agrees that some messages are offensive and some knowledge is undesired, that doesn't justify breaking the very concept of communication and knowledge.

[camgunz]

> "You can't say this thing"

> Is and entirely different thing than

> "You can't see this thing"

I think you're arguing against a point no one is making, not even TFA. TFA is basically about piracy. Maybe you could stretch it into a broader "what can I as a private entity host on my platform/DNS" question, but this is about a music piracy site. We're not talking about fundamental history of humanity here, it's Foo Fighters and Oak Ridge Boys all the way down. And it's worth saying you are free to buy (most of) this music! It's not like it's being disappeared into a memory hole. The analog here would be like, I don't even know, the Hitler estate suing DNS providers for resolving the hostname of a site that hosted Adolf's speeches for free, when they sold them on CD for $25 each. I'm pretty good at bullshitting, but even I can't make the leap from that to censorship.

Further, private platforms have no obligation whatsoever to let you say whatever you want on them, and in fact have obligations to report certain speech to the cops (you can imagine the kinds of speech we're talking about here, i.e. crimes). But also I can run a forum and ban people and annihilate their posts with impunity as long as I don't do it because of their "race, color, religion, or national origin", [0] and this is assuming forums qualify as public accommodations, which isn't currently clear (it's at least possible if not likely my forum would be classified as a private club). Should I do so I will have violated none of their rights, and will have in no way censored them, no matter how many people use my forum, because I'm not a government and they're free to use other forums or even run their own. This also applies to more concrete things like restaurants: I'm free to run a restaurant and ban neo-Nazis, but I can't ban Catholics. It's worth saying I'm not wild about this law. I think it would better if it were more carefully delineated along the lines of ascribed (sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, nationality) vs. achieved (profession, political ideology, religion) statuses, and SCOTUS is chipping away at it like they do, but it's what we've got.

Finally, I just don't think what you're worried about happening is happening. You can reference and learn about anti-semitism on Twitter [1] (kind of, insofar as you can learn about anything there). You just can't go around spouting actual anti-semitic stuff like spamming "14 Words" or trying to argue that Oskar Dirlewanger was just misunderstood. There's a difference! There's no confusion! You can also go to ADL's website to learn about these things; in fact that's what I did.

Your argument seems to be that unless we let the worst, most vile speech infest our social networks, we'll at best be ignorant of history and at worst break some fundamental human law of knowledge. But there are other ways to learn about history that don't empower white nationalists (etc.). I mean, we knew about this stuff before Twitter; I think we'll be fine.

[0]: https://www.justice.gov/crt/title-ii-civil-rights-act-public...

[1]: https://twitter.com/ADL