[the_af]

> LLMs Can produce output that is equal in intelligence and creativity to humans.

"Intelligence" is begging the question when the whole debate is about whether they are intelligent, and what intelligence even is.

"Creativity" however... consider my eyebrows raised. Where do you see LLMs surpassing humans in creativity?

> It can even produce output that is objectively better than humans.

Examples?

[dontmobile]

>"Intelligence" is begging the question when the whole debate is about whether they are intelligent, and what intelligence even is.

Intelligent as in the output response is often indistinguishable from human level reasoning and/or creativity. Sometimes superior.

>"Creativity" however... consider my eyebrows raised. Where do you see LLMs surpassing humans in creativity?

>Examples?

Query:

   Compose a poem about a half dragon half hippo on a quest to defeat a speck of dirt. The speck of dirt has armies of atomic bombs on legs defending him. Make the poem epic, heroic and eloquent.

Response:

   In realms where imagination's fervor flows,
   There lived a creature of unusual pose,
   Half dragon, half hippo, in heroic repose,
   Embarking on a quest that nobody chose.

   A speck of dirt, mundane, minute,
   Guarded by atoms, in explosive pursuit.
   Their deadly legs, marching, resolute,
   The specter of destruction, absolute.

   Yet undeterred, our hero strode,
   Down the path that destiny showed.
   With dragon's fire and hippo's load,
   To face the atomic, legged abode.

   Mountains crumbled, rivers fled,
   The sky above turned fiery red.
   Yet the half-dragon, half-hippo, met the dread,
   His heart on the quest, his mind on the thread.

   "Begone!" he roared with a dragon's ire,
   Faced the atomic legions, an unholy choir.
   Against the speck, he breathed his fire,
   In the face of oblivion, he did not tire.

   He summoned his strength from the hippo's well,
   Against the explosive onslaught, he fell.
   But in his heart, a courage swell,
   Against the speck of dirt, he'd rebel.

   With one mighty heave, the ground did shake,
   The atomic army faltered, began to break.
   He plunged into the heart of the quake,
   For his home, for his world, for all of their sake.

   The speck of dirt, it's reign thus end,
   No longer a threat, no longer a fiend.
   Victorious stood our hippo-dragon friend,
   His quest completed, his land to mend.

   In tales of valor, they'll speak his name,
   The dragon-hippo who tamed the atomic flame.
   In epic sagas, his heroic claim,
   Against a speck of dirt, he won the game.

Illustration:

https://imgur.com/a/AOHlBkf

(you will get a cautionary warning about NSFW but don't worry... the picture is SFW)

I mean you could argue that this entire response is just stochastic parroting. But my point is you can't say anything either way. We don't know how these LLMs came up with the poem or the illustration. But one thing we do know is that none of what I posted here is a copy of anything that exists.

Is it objectively better or equal to what humans can produce? I don't know. You can try to Prove me wrong. Write a better poem and draw a better picture in less time.

[the_af]

I'm sorry, I didn't ask you for a poem-like text generator.

Your claim was:

> LLMs Can produce output that is equal in intelligence and creativity to humans. It can even produce output that is objectively better than humans.

I don't see this poem about half-dragon / half-hippos as particularly creative, but I'll preempt the "my opinion vs your opinion" with this: it definitely does NOT surpass what humans can come up with. Human poems are unarguably better.

And this word salad of a poem definitely fed from human creations and is derivative of them.

I didn't ask whether LLM could create poem-like texts.

[dontmobile]

You asked for examples where it could do better than you and you stated it couldn't be creative. I gave you an example both in text form and in picture form where it is creative and it does better than you.

First this proves it can do better than you. The word salad is likely better than anything you can come up with. Again feel free to prove me wrong here by doing better. Draw me a better illustration and write me a better poem. These are your initial points. Stick to the point and prove me wrong. Do not deviate.

Second there is no denying this is creative. Both the picture and the text are the definition of creative. Whether it's a poem or not is besides the point. Whether it's "particularly creative" or not is also besides the point. The picture and the text prove your initial points wrong. I will be sticking to this point until you prove otherwise. Until then I request you do not deviate the conversation to alternative points.

[the_af]

> You asked for examples where it could do better than you

No. I suggest you read again. Or is that "you" a collective for "humankind"?

> First this proves it can do better than you.

No. You are misusing the word "proof" in a dishonest way.

> The word salad is likely better than anything you can come up with.

Feeling combative, are we? You know nothing about me. I don't feel compelled to write anything for your amusement; I suppose that makes me different from a LLM-powered chatbot.

> The picture and the text prove your initial points wrong. I will be sticking to this point until you prove otherwise. Until then I request you do not deviate the conversation to alternative points.

I feel no obligation to follow your whims, unlike a chatbot. The text and picture prove nothing of the sort. Besides, I didn't claim I was a particularly good writer, let alone a good poem writer (I didn't claim the contrary; I made no claims at all).

I didn't claim there is no creativity with LLMs. I claimed it's barely equal to and certainly doesn't surpass human creativity.

PS: I am very skilled at drawing (in a different style than the example) and I can easily surpass it in my preferred style. I don't find the illustration you showed very good, either.

[dontmobile]

Not being combative. You are mistaken. I am simply trying to keep the conversation on point and prevent deviation. You made initial points I want those points to be determined to be definitively wrong or right before moving on and branching off into deviations.

By "you" I mean the average human. The common human. It can surpass you as an average human and thus it can surpass the common human aka most humans. I don't know you but I made an assumption that you are average.

If you are good at drawing that doesn't mean you can do better. When I compare the art from LLMs to other artists it is in general equal. Then in this case it matches you in your preferred style. But likely beats you in photorealistic styles. I know artists often use simplistic styles to make things easier. Is this the case for you? I wouldn't know. But when looking at other artists I find it very likely it matches you in skill.

The claim made by me is that an LLM can surpass humans and match humans. I did not make the claim that it consistently does this. I believe the poem and the picture proves this as everyone on this thread is unlikely to provide any proof to the contrary.

Maybe you can do slightly better for the illustration. But slow speed prevents you from proving this.

[the_af]

"You" the average human, but then you challenge me to provide something better? Weird.

I wouldn't write something as bad as this poem, and I'm not even a poet!

No, my art style is not "simple", but it's not photorrealistic either (this style you showed isn't photorrealistic either, mind you).

Without taking away how the current AI image generators work, which is impressive, I find good human artists are better. And the AI is taking from them, anyway. It's one thing to say "draw like van Gogh", and another entirely to be van Gogh for the first time.

Comparing an algorithm to "average people" makes no sense. Some people are not creative at all, so maybe a clever chimp is more creative! A vector-graphics game from the 80s-90s is better than most people at drawing vector art, so what? This is not how meaningful creativity comparisons work.

Creativity is not measured in speed either. If this is the metric you're using, I can see the source of our disagreement.

[johnnyworker]

> Guarded by atoms

atoms, not atom bombs.

> his mind on the thread

What is that?

All in all I found the poem to be really bad. "he won the game" is not something you'd hear in an epic, it generally seems to go by the gamer definition of "epic" which is just calling something epic because you can't be bothered to examine or describe it. It reminds me of Edgar A. Poe and his "draw the rest of the owl" style. "It was so foreboding and beyond human imagination". Show, don't tell.

It breathed fire, it was so heroic and resolute and a lot of other adjectives just floating about, there is no fight at all - that all is skipped, the army faltered (because fire was breathed on atomic bombs? okay?)... it's just a bunch of filler text with no substance, I can't imagine any sequence of events based on this.

And one of the images shows several people riding on the hippo, with another hippo in the background, totally failing the assignment. None of them show atomic bombs on legs, and don't even attempt to depict a speck of dust.

[dontmobile]

Bad poem. But creative. It took some creative liberties which you did not like. Also the LLM took creative liberties on the picture, similar to a human. I guess if a human drew extra people in some mock up I would automatically assume that human is a robot. Makes sense? No.

As for the spec of dust. It's there , it's just too small for you to see.

I guess you not liking the poem is now the demarcation for intelligence? Come on man. This poem is better than anything you can come up with and it's creative.

Hmm as for the nukes. That one is your most legitimate claim. It definitively failed in that respect. But I would hardly call that a clear sign that it's not intelligent. This is more a clear sign that the LLM is not understood. We don't know why it didn't draw the nukes. To say it didn't because it's not intelligent? Well that's too bold of a claim.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> Compose a poem about a half dragon half hippo on a quest to defeat a speck of dirt. The speck of dirt has armies of atomic bombs on legs defending him. Make the poem epic, heroic and eloquent.

This is certainly creative. But, if I understand correctly, this is your prompt, yes?

[dontmobile]

A composition of a poem from this prompt is creative. The poem and the picture had to fill in elements not included in my prompt.

[the_af]

It's creative (though possibly gramatically correct word salad from human sources; no small feat, but not exactly what's claimed either).

What is not is good poetry. Certainly no proof that LLMs can surpass humans.

[dontmobile]

Then write a better poem. Draw a better picture.

I wouldn't say this example surpasses all humans. It surpasses most humans and matches those trained in poetry and in illustration. Where it does definitively excel is timing. Both the poem and the pictures were generated in less than a minute. No human can create that quickly ever. Even the best of us cannot match that in speed.

[the_af]

Speed is not the measure of creativity. I don't think anyone will deny that machines can do some things way faster than humans; this has little to do with AI in particular.

I don't think this "poem" matches or surpasses most humans trained in poetry.

I don't have to provide anything. I mean, there's a huge body of poetry (that this LLM was trained on, by the way) to compare it to. Pick poetry you like, and compare it to this one. You'll see the difference in quality.

[dontmobile]

Speed is not a measure of creativity but it is a critical factor in the generation of evidence.

In that respect it is beating your argument on all counts.

You don't have to provide anything. But it makes your argument weaker if you can't generate better works of creativity from the given prompt.

Let's stick to the dynamic prompt. The point is to choose a prompt that will create works that don't exist. We don't want the LLM or the artist in question copying anything that already exists. Proof of creativity requires an actual live demonstration of it.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

What I mean is that the OP's prompt to the LLM is creative, not the LLM's output. The LLM's output just expounds on the human's prompt so the poem it generated is clearly not an example of creativity.