[arghwhat]

At the same time, the majority of those running Windows have the same relationship to it as you have with Linux on your DSL modem - "It's what the computer I bought comes with" - and yet we are not discounting those Windows users. Same goes for macOS, especially now where Asahi Linux is the only and yet incomplete alternative.

In some comparisons it makes sense to remove DSL modems from the equation and focusing on some more "computer-like" subset of device (otherwise no OS would ever do better than "several orders of magnitude fewer deployments than Linux"), but discounting every device where you did not actively pick the OS would make for an extremely biased comparison.

Plus, we don't care about such distinctions outside comparisons. SteamOS have already driven significant improvements for regular desktop users. Same goes for Tizen, Android and ChromeOS. Even wonky DSL firmwares have positive effects for the rest of us.

> GNU+Linux

no.

[Draiken]

Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either.

For many non tech savvy users if you give them a Linux laptop with any modern DE, they can't tell the difference.

But it seems these filters are almost always cherry picked against Linux for some reason I sincerely don't know.

[nullindividual]

> Exactly. And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either.

I'm not sure what would make you an authoritative source on why people by Macs or where you're sourcing your thoroughly researched data, but I can tell you I purchased an MBA to run macOS and the software that runs on macOS. Or like the Intel N100 mini PC I purchased explicitly to run proxmox + OPNSense. Or like my Windows laptop to have a mobile lab.

I pick the machine based on the software I want to run. I'm sure we can find one, perhaps if we stretch it, two other people on HN who also purchase machines based off of the OS/software they need to run.

[arghwhat]

Many on HN might be intimately familiar with macOS internals, but we are not in any way or form the average users. Running OPNSense on Proxmox definitely sets the "outlier" sticky bit.

Most users do not watch WWDC and do not know what OS release notes are. They don't know what the boundary between their web browser and their OS is, and macOS just becomes "the thing that nags them to update it" - a nag that users unfortunately still ignore, as evident by my recent confrontation with Big Sur machines.

[nullindividual]

Oh I completely agree with you that folks on HN are likely to be of a particular mindset when it comes to technology purchases.

However, that doesn't mean that every non-HN user out there buys the aluminum-shell-in-the-vague-shape-of-a-laptop and doesn't make a conscious choice.

My point still stands. The GP doesn't have the data to back up the assertion.

[arghwhat]

There is also no data to back up the opposite assertion. It would be rather surprising to see comments on HN based on hard statistical data - an implicit "IMO" prefix makes sense to apply in most human discussions.

> That does not mean that every non-HN user...

Not every - but I do believe it is still the majority. There are a lot of people out there, and the knowledge required to make the aforementioned OS choice is niche.

This is not implying stupidity, just that there are many trades and interests out there, and subscribing to ours specifically is not a given.

[nullindividual]

> There is also no data to back up the opposite assertion.

Which is why I made no assertion with a percentage.

> but I do believe it is still the majority

What makes you believe that? Thousands of data points? Hundreds? Tens? The handful of people around you? Certainly not statistics.

[wtetzner]

> a nag that users unfortunately still ignore

For good reason. Running those updates requires restarting the computer, which in turn means you have to get your working state setup again after each update. People use computers to get things done, and running updates often has the opposite effect.

[ndriscoll]

That and updates are going to be the time where computers stop working. If you don't change anything, it will generally continue to work fine for years. My experience with MacOS at work was that I could expect to spend at least a day fixing whatever broke after each major OS version update, so naturally I'd put off doing it for as long as possible.

Even if things continue to work, updates may come with UI changes that disrupt the user's workflow (and the trend tends to be to remove or hide functionality and make things less useful/information dense as time goes by). Unless there's something you specifically want, modern software updates tend to be high risk low reward from the user's perspective.

Incidentally this is why I prefer desktop Linux. With the exception of Firefox turning into Chrome over the years, FOSS software tends to be remarkably stable. My home computer feels like it hasn't changed at all in almost a decade. I never have to fiddle with it.

[Paradigma11]

What was surprising to me was that having an Ubuntu Laptop and a Windows 11 PC side by side that Ubuntu needs about twice as often restarts compared to Windows. I only have that setup 3-4 months, so it could be an outlier though.

[wtetzner]

Does it force the updates? Ot can you postpone them indefinitely?

My biggest issue with Windows was the forced reboots.

[paulmd]

> They don't know what the boundary between their web browser and their OS is,

Exactly. The thing many users are referring to as MacOS, is in fact, Darwin/MacOS, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Darwin plus MacOS. MacOS is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another component of a fully functioning operating system made useful by the BSD corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by the Single Unix Specification v3.

[bitcharmer]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make

[nullindividual]

Would it help if I used English?

[pjmlp]

They would, as soon as they try to use any software most people on their circle of friends use, CD/DVD coming on the hardware they bought at the mall, or any computer magazine besides Linux Format and similar.

[arghwhat]

Well, in 2023 a majority of that would be web or electron apps so they might not be able to tell the difference. They would be equally stumped at the sight of a CD/DVD no matter their choice of OS, as machines have not shipped with optical drives in ages.

[pjmlp]

Most normal people don't buy new software all the time, most of them like to keep their old copies going as much as possible.

Most desktop computers still do, and in alternative there are USB stick variants.

Which doesn't change the fact regarding what drivers, for what set of OSes, are supported out of the box.

[arghwhat]

Desktop computers are unusual nowadays, despite being a decent option. They are gone from non-gaming retail stores from what I can tell, so it's much more of an active decision to get.

It is true that if you try to reuse your 2003 Office install you will fail, but such unsupported and deprecated software will also cause trouble on a modern PC. Even if it runs, using an old version of Outlook is extremely unsafe...

Common end-user hardware does not require drivers nowadays either (not even printers due to IPPAnywhere and co., even though manufacturers still ship them for some reason).

Things are always hairy outside that though - macOS no longer permit kernel extensions, and you know you are in a dark place if DKMS gets involved on Linux.

[pjmlp]

macOS does not permit kernel extensions, because contrary to GNU/Linux they take ABI and kernel stability seriously, and are incrementally turning the OS into a proper microkernel, with all extensions running in userspace.

[mmis1000]

My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him.

And the only thing he use it for entertainment is browser (for reading novels)

If I am managed to setup all these properly on other system. I doubt him would ever notice a difference.

Non tech user just can't care about what system he is using less. All matter for him are tools that help him to finish his work.

What about dvd/cd or install some new softwares? Well, I am the in house tech support.

[pjmlp]

That is the thing, he only manages that thanks to the in house tech support, he would be lost without it.

[darkwater]

> My dad exclusively use ie(due to activex/flash in some internal corp site), excel, and word on the laptop I bought for him.

That was a majority use-case between 2005-2015. Now it's a niche case (yeah, even if absolute numbers are still big enough, relatively speaking it's a niche)

[pulvinar]

Except many if not most (at least in the past) chose a Mac for the software first and the hardware second. I know I did. And I’ve also been using desktop Linux begrudgingly beside it, ever since it existed. Windows too, though I’ve lately removed any need for that.

[ghaff]

But at that point then who gives a damn what the “desktop” or other market share is because it’s essentially meaningless and can be manipulated into whatever you want it to be. Add in the fact that a lot of what you run whether SaaS or even a shell is in a server somewhere else. The actual client operating system is increasingly about as relevant for a lot of use cases as what software your terminal ran a few decades ago.

[Sporktacular]

"And MacBook users don't choose MacOS either."

I don't see why. I really like macOS. More than any other environment it's uncluttered, well organised, it gets out of the way. It abstracts a lot of unnecessary technical detail but still allows diving into that, if I'm inclined. And most of all, I like well integrated system-wide features instead of palming it off to developers. Sure the hardware is good too, but I don't know where you get that idea from.

[jrm4]

Eh, I'd say two things:

It's VERY EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to "teach the controversy" of GNU+Linux. It's not at all important to actually use the term.

[seba_dos1]

It can be quite pragmatic to use it too, there's no need to be religious about it. Even though the term gets criticized for "what about other parts than GNU", "what about Alpine" etc. it's actually a very useful term which makes people know exactly what you mean behind it, which is not something that can be said about "Linux" without providing additional context.

[jrm4]

Exactly. We got GNU/Linux, we got GNU/kWindows, we got DalvikJavaWhatever/Linux etc etc

[handmadeta]

well, maybe you are right and it's not as clear cut. But I think people very intentionally buy a PC or a Mac which to most means the hardware and the operating system together. And, not to put too fine a point on it, but NOBODY here is counting mac user as BSD users either.