[dragontamer]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate...

Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though.

We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge.

This is literally and precisely, a conspiracy perpetrated by Tesla and its executives to trick users into thinking Tesla cars have more range than they truly do.

[constantcrying]

>lie to customers

Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car.

>We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge.

The algorithm claim seems extremely weak. Unless you can get some actual developer to testify that he was explicitly ordered to build the algorithm to report a range which he knew was impossible to reach or something similar, this seems practically irrelevant.

The "service-cancellation teams" seem somewhat stranger. I don't think cancelling a service appointment is damning in any way, though.

[dragontamer]

> Is that alleged?

The fuel-meter is absolutely lying to you at 50%+. And the customer-service reps know it, and they even have trained responses over this conspiracy.

[constantcrying]

No, this is about the claim that representatives told customers that is normal, that their cars have lower ranges than advertised.

The allegedy cospiracy would be that Tesla managment and its employees were conspiring to quickly deal with customer complaints. But what is actually illegal there? Note that the representatives were truthful when they dismissed customers. Their cars were not broken.

[dragontamer]

Fraud is illegal. And all fraud is ... is just lying to a degree enough that the courts care.

The more-and-more it is proven that your "just lying" is a coordinated effort across your company, the more and more it looks like fraud to ... well everybody.

[constantcrying]

But the suggestion that tesla was lying seems already far fetched. If anything their adertising was misleading.

>The more-and-more it is proven that your "just lying" is a coordinated effort across your company, the more and more it looks like fraud to ... well everybody.

But there is zero evidence for this. There is no lie here. At best there are misleading statememts about performance.

[Nullabillity]

Intentionally misleading people.. is exactly the definition of lying?

[therouwboat]

>The algorithm claim seems extremely weak. Unless you can get some actual developer to testify that he was explicitly ordered to build the algorithm to report a range which he knew was impossible to reach or something similar, this seems practically irrelevant.

Of course he was ordered to build it that way, it's not like some worker is just going to decide by himself.

[constantcrying]

>Of course he was ordered to build it that way

Zero evidence for that.

[dragontamer]

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-ba...

> The directive to present the optimistic range estimates came from Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk, this person said.

> “Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the person said, adding: “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.”

-------

This is evidence, is it not?

[kjksf]

Depends.

If the plaintiffs have a sworn, signed statement from the person claiming that then it could be presented as evidence during the trial, subject to cross-examination.

If all they have is the article it's hearsay i.e. "evidence based not on a witness's personal knowledge but on another's statement not made under oath"

Also known as: bupkis.

[constantcrying]

Certainly not for anything illegal.

If you believe Musk on this the lawsuit is practically pointless. Having an optimistic algorithm is not illegal and even alledging that it somehow is seems absurd.

[dragontamer]

> If you believe Musk on this

Seriously, you shouldn't believe Musk with regards to lawsuits.

If Musk knew anything about law, he wouldn't have been forced to buy Twitter last year. The world was revealed to how ignorant this guy is to the law.

-------------------

By the way, this is a civil case, not a criminal case. "Illegal" is almost a non-sequitur.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraud

> In civil litigation, allegations of fraud might be based on a misrepresentation of fact that was either intentional or negligent. For a statement to be an intentional misrepresentation, the person who made it must either have known the statement was false or been reckless as to its truth. The speaker must have also intended that the person to whom the statement was made would rely on it. The hearer must then have reasonably relied on the promise and also been harmed because of that reliance.

All they have to do to successfully sue here is prove that the other side was "misleading", and that they "knew about being misleading" (intentional), or even the lower-standard of recklessness (they didn't know they were misleading, but they didn't do enough research to prove their own statements true before telling customers).

Welcome to Civil Law. The standards are much lower than criminal law. But its just money, so that makes sense.

[abduhl]

A tale of moving goalposts, as presented by constantcrying:

“Unless you can get some actual developer to testify that he was explicitly ordered to build the algorithm to report a range which he knew was impossible to reach or something similar, this seems practically irrelevant.”

“Zero evidence for that.”

When confronted with evidence that the algorithm was specifically designed to show an unrealistic, misleading, and apparently impossible to meet range based on orders from the highest authority in Tesla:

“Certainly not [evidence] for anything illegal.”

[Nullabillity]

> Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car.

It demonstrates that their original range claim was a lie.

[redserk]

I've worked tech support at a couple of different organizations early in my career. It does not seem at all unusual to create a team dedicated to a particular class of issue so other support staff can focus on a broader range of issues.

[mrguyorama]

This is an issue that tesla created on purpose though. These people are confused that their car is not going as far as THE RANGE DISPLAY shows they will go. Hundreds of millions of cars have been made over the past twenty years with range displays that you can trust to hit zero BEFORE you run out of gas, due to estimating with recent driving data, and probably a gentle bump down of the number to make sure drivers have a safety net when they are stupid.

Has there ever been a single one of these systems overestimating by tens of miles consistently and for nearly every individual?

[constantcrying]

And what should Tesla do instead?

Putting a team together to tell customers their cars are fine seems completly legal and not a conspiracy in any way.

[mrguyorama]

Do the same, less inaccurate thing that every single other car maker has always done and give more accurate range estimations? Something Tesla already does in the route planner, and also show they know how to do as the battery meter gets closer to empty, when they switch out their estimation for more accurate ones?

This isn't difficult. Tesla is not required to use the EPA range estimation figures to do any range estimation internally, it's literally only something that goes on the window sticker. Tesla instead chose to design their range display to do something that no other automaker did, and use a KNOWN OVERESTIMATOR as their methodology for range estimation.

Nobody else has to set up these call centers because nobody else chose to set up their range meters in such a way to mislead customers. It's really that simple.

[Nullabillity]

Stop lying about their ranges in the first place...?

[m463]

In tech support parlance, this is called "setting expectations".

unfortunately the expectations were already set by the pre-sales marketing.

[brandonagr2]

What lie to customers? A team to stop ignorant customers from wasting everyone's time isn't a conspiracy, there was nothing wrong with the car or performance, what would a service visit achieve?