Fresh grads, interns, and apprentices typically uproot their lives to move to tech hubs, as do older populations. That is the terrible effect - getting dropped in a strange new location with minimal network. Of course letting "locals" work remotely would make that situation worse, agreed.
So completely do away with tech hubs. People can continue to grow organically, they are free to stay or move as makes sense to them individually.
As a society, we should be striving to continue decoupling work from our identity.
I like that workers themselves need to “rebel” against the powers that be to solve this as we are completely incapable of improving the housing crisis otherwise. Nimbys, geriatric government ineptitude, and corporate investment is actively working against new home owners. It’s complete generational theft that seeks to turn everyone into a renter for life.
The thing is, the supposed mentorship and office culture that fresh grads and neophyte employees believe they are missing largely never existed even before COVID.
- Companies just aren't interested in training people if they can hire someone trained somewhere else.
- Project-based time accounting doesn't account for time spent mentoring and transferring knowledge.
- Some older workers withhold knowledge and aren't punished for it. Some older workers share knowledge and aren't rewarded for it.
All this existed prior to COVID and expansion of work from home.
There's nothing precluding people from mentoring others over the net, through chat and video.
I see people mention in these threads that in-person mentoring and networking is somehow "just better", but no source or wide-population evidence is ever provided. It's always "trust me bro" and "it helped me", whereas the reality is a lot closer to what you described.
There are lots of companies with shitty in-office cultures where new employees get hazed and bullied, but never productively mentored. Either way, for the last 15-20 years at least, the burden of learning has been almost entirely on the employee, regardless of whatever corporate PR drones may say.
I lived with my parents like three years into working a full time, decently paid job. We'd always lived in rentals and I wanted to help with the bills. After moving out I realized that, man, I was saving so much money!
This anecdote to say that I'd probably been terrible at a remote job while in the old structures. Now I'm married with a child, but I get to call the shots on daily routine, so to speak. I can even work late nights without mom coming to admonish.
Then, isn't the long duree view of technology about replacing apprenticeship learning (sit with the master welder, clean the shop, watch him work -- this doesn't cut in software)? Sometimes with explicit learning (linear algebra), sometimes just with low-friction entry points into professions.
There are always some discussion about turning them into apartments here on HN. My conclusion from them is that no, they couldn't.
But they could be turned into something else useful. All that space close to each other and at the destination of every transportation structure will find a usage.
One of his arguments is that for younger employees, in that it provides an opportunity to create social connections. For example, it appears that ~20% of people meet their spouses at work.
I worked remote for a year before the pandemic for health reasons and didn't like it much, was looking forward to going back.
The pandemic was a huge rearrangement to so many things though. It forced through a lot of the accommodations that previously I had to beg and fight for. Got everyone used to having to write more, have video option for all meetings, train judgement about what can be async etc.
It also normalized the lunch errand, the early dinner then back at work, the "I might just be away from the computer when you message me" dynamic that makes remote work genuinely fulfilling. I no longer feel like I'm committing a moral transgression against my coworkers by stopping to help a family member with a chore or whatever.
I once said I would never willingly do remote. Now I say I'll never willingly work from an office regularly. I might turn out to be as wrong about this as I was about that, we'll see.
A lot of these things seemed normal to me in Bay Area tech companies pre pandemic (large companies, not even startups). I always left the office in the middle of the day to do errands or go to the gym and never felt bad about it. I can’t tell if I somehow had an unusual experience within those companies, or if it’s just that most people on HN work at more restrictive companies.
Bay area tech companies aren't the norm even for programmers. There are like 4 million software devs in the US, most of us are working at companies you've never heard of, and have office norms much closer to that of the rest of office workers. Often somewhat more prestige and flexibility, but not so dramatic.
So yes I think your experience is probably an outlier. And on HN generally I think that sort of environment is overrepresented still.
Your preferences would do a very quick 180 if you had a commute over a certain length in order to get to the office.
Understand that your current preference is a result of being in an advantageous living accommodation next to the office building your company is leasing.
I live in the city center and so by choice. My office is a 12 minute drive away with rarely any traffic. I'm in a medium COL city not known for its tech scene. I don't live "next door" to my office, though that would be awesome if I could.
> Understand that your current preference is a result of being in an advantageous living accommodation next to the office building your company is leasing.
I prefer to go to the beach or the park in my free time, but my preference would certainly change if there was hurricane outside. In that case I'd rather stay indoors.
Obviously my experience would differ if I had a 30+ minute hellish commute. The only teammates that have a commute this long choose to do so as a tradeoff (e.g. more house).
I guess this response and tone surprise me because it seems obvious. There are clearly tradeoffs made when we choose where to live and where we work (including WFH or in-office policy).
I don't mind occasionally being in the office with my entire team. The problem is that my team is split across three offices in different cities.
We have folk who prefer to work from the office, and that's fine. But it makes team meetings more challenging than they are when everyone's at home.
When we were only spread across two offices, we'd occasionally have a team day in one or other of the offices. But the third office is much further away.
I really don’t understand what people are gaining from telling others what to do. Flexibility buys freedom for all employees to live the lifestyle they want. As long as it does not impact your goals or your employers goals I don’t really understand what the real issue is here.
If the shoe were on the other foot how would you feel if someone forced you to be remote?
Why do you not see it as symmetrical? A WFH policy is not my preference, yet I don't feel "forced" to put up with it if that is the policy of my team / company.
Yes, yes i do.
It gives me some time to physically and mentally detach from work when going home, and it gives me time to read up on news, catch up with friends, family, etc.
"But you could do that from home": yes, but i wouldn't.