[mcculley]

Your guess is partly correct. Jones Act and USCG Subchapter M are bigger parts of the problem.

It is not just pay rate. Where I can match pay rates, I cannot match lifestyle. U.S. citizens and green card holders have more attractive jobs available to them that do not require being away from family for weeks at a time. (e.g., software development)

[genocidicbunny]

> It is not just pay rate. Where I can match pay rates, I cannot match lifestyle.

Acceptance of that lifestyle is partially contingent on the pay. I am sure that plenty of people would be willing to spend long stretches away from home at work if they were being paid $1m.

[mcculley]

Certainly, I could poach a license if I could pay a $1M.

[genocidicbunny]

Right, so we agree that fundamentally, this is a pay shortage.

That's exactly the point everyone is trying to make to you. That ultimately most labor shortages, unless caused by extremely rapid change in conditions (such as a law being introduced with only weeks notice that dramatically changes the regulatory landscape with no time to adapt) are usually pay shortages.

Labor shortage has long been used as a weasel phrase to imply that it's the fault of the workers/labor that companies can't fill positions. That's what the pushback is on. If your business can't find enough workers, you or your industry aren't offering enough financial incentive to have people work for you. You need to offer more money. And if you can't because it's not financially viable? Well...seems the free market has spoken and said that your business is not viable anymore. As the kids say these days, 'sucks to suck'.

[mcculley]

I fully agree that the industry does not price the labor correctly. This is one reason why I am selling the company and reallocating the capital.

There are many funded projects not executing for lack of captains today. The captains I manage to hire leave other companies wanting. How is that not a shortage?

[genocidicbunny]

It's a shortage, no one is disputing that. But it's not a shortage of labor. It's a shortage of pay. Phrasing it as alabor shortage is a problem.

[mcculley]

There are X projects funded right now that need captains. These projects need roughly 2X captains. There are, right now, Y licensed captains. Y < 2X. More pay today does not make Y == 2X today.

I agree that this shortage could have been avoided.

[badpun]

> There are many funded projects not executing for lack of captains today.

Perhaps those projects are just not viable economically, because they can't pay enough to attract the captains. Or, the owners are too rigid to pay (for example) $500k salary to a captain.

[mcculley]

Yes, obviously. For example, there is a bridge construction project that is delayed by lack of qualified labor. I am sure they can rebid the project and hire labor currently employed on other construction projects, delaying those projects instead.

That is still a shortage. There is a finite number of licensed captains with Master of Towing endorsement who are legally allowed to work on U.S. flag vessels. You cannot make a new licensed captain with just money. It takes time.

I completely agree that shortages can be fixed with good planning, which industry and the U.S. government did not do.

I also completely agree that when using unskilled labor, one can just apply more money to attract labor. Skilled labor requires more than money to acquire.

[lotsofpulp]

> Where I can match pay rates, I cannot match lifestyle.

Pay is short for “pay to quality of life at work ratio”.

If alternatives with better pay to QoL ratios become available, the then either a business can increase the pay to QoL ratio, or it may no longer be viable.

[mcculley]

I did not write "quality of life". I wrote "lifestyle". I find that many young candidates do not want to be on a boat for a week or more away from family. Some do. Most do not. I, personally, enjoyed long voyages when I was young. They added quality to my life.

[pcthrowaway]

Yeah, I'm with other commenters.. it's about what you're paying them (and other perks).

Pay people at all levels a minimum of $5000 for each week away at sea, then they might do 4 months of work (which includes free board but is essentially a 24hr job) and 8 months of other things they enjoy while still living a near middle-class life.

Still having a hard time finding people? Give them more comfortable beds. Get an on-board chef. Ensure they have starlink access when they're not on active duty. Give them appropriate bonuses, dental, medical, RRSP matching

I'd be very surprised if you don't find a number of people eager to do this if their compensation is good enough.

Sure, if 80% of your workforce is only on deck 3-4 months out of the year then of course you have to hire more people too, but you'll find those people. You'll be flooded with people who want to do this. Maybe my calculus is off? Maybe you need to pay $6000/week? $10000/week? I guarantee you there is a salary incentive where people won't refuse. People will leave software engineering jobs to go work on a boat 3 months out of a year (I would at around $7000/week). Doctors will quit, etc.

When people say better pay won't solve the "shortage", I wonder how they so deeply misunderstood free market economics.

"most young candidates" don't want to be slaving away at a factory for most of their life either. They want to be able to buy a house. Maybe even 4 months of rent relief will massively change their lives. Maybe they want to buy a house one day or be able to responsibly have a kid.

There's not a labor shortage, there are just industries that don't pay enough

[mcculley]

Yes, we do lure people with more money. They still won’t be licensed and legal to work as captains for years.

[omginternets]

>I find that many young candidates do not want to be on a boat for a week or more away from family.

I think it would be helpful to this discussion if you were to add "for the amount that I am paying them" to the end of that sentence. Then, you would be addressing the point.

[mcculley]

Before I decided that this industry was a poor place to deploy capital, I was open to paying whatever was necessary to fix the pipeline.

[badpun]

In my country (Poland), long-haul truckers are paid roughly double what the local truckers (those who get to come home every night) make. This is enough to compensate people for the inconvenience, and there's generally no shortage of workers. So, maybe in your case, there's also some multiplier that would work?

[mcculley]

Candidates are definitely attracted to higher pay. The immediate issue is that it takes a long time to get the candidate the seatime, training, and tests to become licensed. We are working on our pipeline. That does not change the shortage today.

[lotsofpulp]

It is the same thing, for the purposes of this conversation. The point is $100k for a desk job and $100k for a captain on a bot is not the same “pay”.

[pcthrowaway]

No, you're on a boat 24 hrs a day, you're at a desk (usually) 8 hrs/day.

$100K for a desk job is comparable to $300K on a boat

[mcculley]

It is not that simple. Crew generally have defined shifts for rest. The boat is responsible for food and other basic supplies.

[pcthrowaway]

Oh yeah, sorry, I meant if the captain is working year-round other than a few weeks of vacation (like with desk jobs)

If the captain works 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off it's probably more like $150K for a desk job

[mcculley]

Indeed. And many candidates will not deal with what they see as a bad lifestyle no matter the pay.

[omginternets]

I don't understand how this is distinct from the issue of pay.

[supertofu]

The percentage of U.S. Citizens with the education and temperment to become software engineers is way smaller than you are assuming here.

[mcculley]

I have been a software engineer for 30 years before falling into running a tugboat company. I am not assuming anything.

[alemanek]

Ok, now I am really interested in your story.

If you don’t mind sharing. How did you find yourself in a second career as the owner/operator of a tugboat company?

[mcculley]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36951413

[red-iron-pine]

tell me more. there are days when IT ain't fun and I miss the ocean...

[nradov]

What is that percentage exactly?

There are no particular education requirements for writing software. Some of the best developers have no formal education in the field.

[tayo42]

how much does this job pay?

[mcculley]

Licensed captains with Master of Towing endorsement are currently getting $800-$1,200 per day in regions I am familiar with.

[tayo42]

thats actually not to bad. is the work really inconsistent then, so yearly your not making that much

[mcculley]

There is more work than there are licensed captains available. A good captain can work 365 days per year.