[bmitc]

There's a lot in this comment that I think responds to things I'm not saying and provides some arguments that are not clear cut. I don't see how electricity is a good proxy for consumption and waste. What does electricity usage in the U.S. measure for manufacturers in other countries making everything and the processes used to do that? Also, In the U.S., poverty and consumption and wealth inequality are all increasing. Thus, increasing consumption to pull people out of poverty does not work logically, at least in the U.S.

> If we want to see the poor countries to rise to even mediocre living standards, we will face a huge increase in global consumption.

Why does reducing overall consumption in developed countries and reducing conspicuous and vacuous consumption everywhere hurt developing countries? There are different levels and definitions of consumption and energy consumption is not the only one and not what I meant or described.

> we can produce ... stuff sustainably

Producing things more sustainably was part of my point.

I guess maybe the final point is clearly defining what we mean by consumption. I view consumption that extends beyond providing a moderate way of living, access to healthcare and education, social services, and transportation to be harmful, and it's that excess that I think should be reduced everywhere. There's no reason why developing countries should not be able to learn what a travesty much of the developed world is and adjust what it means to become more developed.