[mathisfun123]

here is the list of slime features on the slime webpage

>Code evaluation, compilation, and macroexpansion.

>Online documentation (describe, apropos, hyperspec).

>Definition finding (aka Meta-Point aka M-.).

>Symbol and package name completion.

>Automatic macro indentation based on &body.

>Cross-reference interface (WHO-CALLS, etc).

https://slime.common-lisp.dev/

and i'm still wondering which of these things i can't do in a python repl? note macroexpansion doesn't count because that's not a dimension of the repl.

[CraigJPerry]

>Code evaluation, compilation

I couldn’t debug the following in pycharm and add the missing function at runtime, or could i?

    def interactively_writing_code():
        this_doesnt_exist_yet()

    interactively_writing_code()

I don’t think i can patch a function at runtime without losing state either in python - the act of redefining the function causes the variables to be reset but in lisp the bindings are untouched.

[mathisfun123]

I just did it - it works perfectly fine. Debug-run your code, an exception will be thrown at the call site, step up one frame from the exception (ie module level), define the missing function, call again and it succeeds - all without leaving the same repl instance. Don't believe me? Try it.

I'll say it again: you guys are in plain denial not about python or lisp as languages but about how interpreters work. There's just nothing more to be said about this dimension of it.

[versteegen]

What's being asked is, after defining the missing function, whether it's possible to clear the exception and continue the execution without having to restart from the beginning. This is very useful when you hit an exception after 10 minutes of execution. (This is a real usecase which would have saved me untold hours.)

I hope it's possible somehow, but if you just load pdb (e.g. with %pdb in ipython), pdb is entered in post-mortem mode, from which it's impossible to modify code/data and resume execution. Setting a breakpoint (or pdb.set_trace()) would requiring knowing about the bug ahead of time. Does it only work when interrupting with a remote debugger rather than on exception?

However, it wouldn't be possible if the interpreter unwinds the stack looking for exception handlers before finding that there is none? In other languages/VMs such as SBCL the runtime can look up the stack for handlers, and invoke the debugger before destructively unwinding.

[mathisfun123]

The other guy up above claims this is a feature unique to calling functions, rather than all error states, and that the lisp runtime specifically guards against this. If that's the case then my answer is very simple: it would be trivial to guard function calls (all function calls) to achieve the exact same functionality in python. I'm in bed but it would literally take me 5 minutes (I would hook eval of the CALL_FUNCTION opcode). Now it would be asinine because it's a six-sigma event that I call a function that isn't defined. On the other hand, setting a breakpoint and redefining functions as you go works perfectly well and is the common case and simultaneously the kind of "repl driven development" discussed all up and down this thread.

[versteegen]

Thank you, you're very helpful despite this raging flame war. I'm glad to hear you can hook opcodes like that, then you really can do anything. And I really need to give "set a defensive breakpoint and then step through the function" an honest go. Now that you say it, I realise I haven't.

[mathisfun123]

>I'm glad to hear you can hook opcodes like that, then you really can do anything

Just in case someone comes around calls me a liar: the way to do this is to spread the bytecodes out one per line and set a line trace. Then when your bytecode of choice pops up, do what you want (including manipulate the stack) and advance the line number (cpython let's you advance the manipulate the line number).

[yaantc]

Calling again and continuing are not the same thing. Sure, with the above trivial example it is. But if the parent function has non idempotent code before calling the missing function (like doing some global change / side effects), then calling again will give a different result than just continuing from the current state.

So is it possible to define the missing function and continue from the same state in Python? I don't think so, but I'm not a heavy Python user (just for small/medium scripts).

[mathisfun123]

>So is it possible to define the missing function and continue from the same state in Python? I don't think so, but I'm not a heavy Python user

This is a pointless debate - someone has to catch the exception, save caller registers, handle the exception (if there's a handler) or reraise. Either you have to do it (by putting a try except there) or your runtime has to be always defensively saving registers or something. Lisp isn't magic, it's just a point on trade-off curve and I have without a shadow of a doubt proven that that point is very close to python (wrt the repl). So okay maybe clisp has made some design decisions that make it a hair more effective at resuming than python. Cool I guess I'll just ignore all the other python features where there's parity or advantage because of this one thing /s.

[versteegen]

I'll take this as an answer to my sibling comment that the answer is "No". I'm really sad CPython can't do that, but maybe some other Python can. It shouldn't necessarily be any slower for the interpreter to figure out where to jump to before saving the execution trace and jumping.

It's not "pointless", I was tearing out my hair and losing days because I couldn't do this in CPython. Yes, I'd much rather use Python than Common Lisp regardless.

[lispm]

This works in compiled Lisp code.

[mathisfun123]

It works in code compiled from c++ too: define and associate a signal handler for sigkill, call a function whose symbol can't be runtime resolved by the linker, sigkill is sent and caught, define your function (in your asm dejure), patch the GOT to point from the original symbol to wherever the bytearray is with your asm, and voila.

I'll say it again: what exactly do you think your magical lisp is doing that defies the laws of physics/computing?

[mtlmtlmtlmtl]

You act as if you know better than everyone in this thread and yet you don't know the 101 level fact that you can't catch SIGKILL.

Maybe try to relax, and learn some humility.

[lispm]

> It works in code compiled from c++ too: define and associate a signal handler for sigkill, call a function whose symbol can't be runtime resolved by the linker, sigkill is sent and caught, define your function (in your asm dejure), patch the GOT to point from the original symbol to wherever the bytearray is with your asm, and voila.

I don't need to do anything like that in Lisp. I just define the function and RESUME THE COMPUTATION WHERE IT STANDS in my read eval print loop. << important parts in uppercase.

[mathisfun123]

Do you think the magic fairies are doing it for you? Your interpreter/runtime is still doing it whether you're aware of it or not.

My point is very simple: I can do it too, in any language I want, and so there's nothing special about lisp.

[nmlrpzt]

So you update a single function without updating the global state, using a vile hack. In CL the entire state is saved.