[DavidPeiffer]

I have had coworkers who wanted to stick with a dumb phone. It sounds great to give junior a dumb phone until they're "old enough", but not much communication happens via sms. It's all done in other apps.

Your kids will be excluded from a lot of conversations and events. They will feel ostricized socially and will inevitably be frustrated at you because of it.

Having no phone versus a dumb phone would make the resentment worse. No idea what the best answer is beyond all of society collectively realizing it's a bad idea to give smartphones to young kids.

[rationalist]

I think the next logical step would be to find a community of like-minded parents and set those kids up to be friends.

[Shrezzing]

Having been a teenager once myself, I can attest that there's nothing in this world that'd more successfully ostricize a kid socially, than grouping them with other isolated kids.

[rationalist]

I think it depends how big the group is. If the group is 3 or 4 kids, then yes, that will be a problem. If the group is larger where they can choose who their friends are and not be constantly surrounded by others with phones, then it might work.

[stathibus]

Parents can't just get together and decide that their 14 year olds are going to be friends.

[PakG1]

They've done that to decide that their babies are going to become a married couple for centuries! I jest, I jest....

[rationalist]

14 is way too late to start, so you are correct.

[causalmodels]

My parents had the same idea but instead of smart phone use, it was religion. It wasn't so successful for them.

[bamfly]

You'll need to move to a very few, probably-expensive places, or scout private schools. Probably not the cheap kind.

:-(

[Shawnj2]

Honestly that’s not something I had really ever thought about, how smartphones are mandatory for children in 2023. I got my first phone in 2014 when I was in 8th grade, a used iPhone 4S without a data plan, and because maybe about 50-75% of kids had a phone or smartphone of some sort and the school had WiFi I don’t ever remember it being necessary for anything, although teachers did say “you can look X up on your phone” a few times and I know some of the girls in my classes used Instagram (although I didn’t start using it until a few years later). I think having a smartphone as a teenager started to become more mandatory around 2016-17, by which point I got a new iPhone 6 with a data plan.

[DavidPeiffer]

I'm a couple years older than you, and got my first smartphone as a junior in 2009. The school had wifi, but students weren't allowed on it. The phone was handy for looking up things, but I was certainly in the minority with a smartphone. In that era, it didn't really make a big difference socially. Group texts were the main mode of communication.

A family member dated a school resource officer for a few years, and it was really jarring to hear stories about stuff he had to deal with from high school students which weren't big issues 5 years prior. Tons of cyber bullying, revenge porn, fake calculator apps that were fronts for encrypted storage, students with multiple phones, etc.

Phones were also way less powerful back then. By the time I went to college, companies were making apps multiple times bigger than at the beginning (like 1-5 MB commonly going to 20-50 MB). I could only have ~5 big apps on my phone before I was out of memory, and the phone died for good on the 2 hour drive to college.

[prmoustache]

Frustration and resentment against his parents is part of being a teenager and a learning process. Trying to save them from that is both naive and impossible.

[carlosjobim]

> Your kids will be excluded from a lot of conversations and events.

Raising your children is the most important thing anybody does in their life. It's not something you do alone, but there is a hierarchy on who should have the most say in raising your children. The hierarchy is something like this:

1. The parents

2. Close family

3. Other parents in the community (if you have such community)

4. Close friends of the parents

5. Tutors, coaches and teachers

6. Responsible and respected adults in the community

7. Any adult

8. Any teenager

9. Criminal gangs

10. Television and Hollywood

11. Silicon Valley companies

12. Government workers

Now, if a child gets excluded from not having a smart phone, it seems that everybody above number 11 are somewhat or blatantly neglecting their duties. Get together with other parents and start taking control back from number 11 in raising your children.

[greatwave1]

Where does the child fall on this hierarchy... do they get any input in what technology they derive value/enjoyment from, or is that entirely dictated by adults in their community who grew up 20+ years ago?

[carlosjobim]

Swap the word "raise" to "influence" if you prefer. A person cannot really influence themselves.

[greatwave1]

Yes they can, people can (and should) have some influence over their own life.

[carlosjobim]

Then you're trying hard to misunderstand, and what do you gain from that? There's no point in arguing about semantics.

[greatwave1]

I think my point is pretty clear: you listed a whole hierarchy of people who you think should have control over your child's behavior (with you at position #1), and haven't given any answer for where you think a child's own decision-making should fit in

Did you miss my original question?

> Do they get any input in what technology they derive value/enjoyment from, or is that entirely dictated by adults in their community who grew up 20+ years ago?