[gv83]

still not easy at the most important thing of all: being approachable, instrumented and intuitive to people less dedicated to programming.

I say this as someone that likes elixir, but after seeing it failing miserably at my org, I'm very skeptical it can be thrown around like a spring or node or django project. It needs real support from the org and requires module design skills that are not present in most random devs from a random org.

[pythonaut_16]

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

Module design doesn't seem any harder than class design in JS or Python.

Do you mean the language is generally harder for non-developers? Or that Elixir is harder for JS/Python developers to pick up and write good code? Or something else?

Writing well designed Elixir code does seem to require a fairly different approach from most common OO languages, at least at a surface level. (Although IMO that's more because you can copy OO patterns you've seen before without thinking much about why they're good patterns than because good design in Elixir is much different from OO)

[gv83]

sure thing! I'll try to make points related to what I observed and experienced in my org, starting with one huge huge huge preamble which is: I work in an average org with average joe devs. an average joe dev to me is someone who "just wants a job" and is not very interested in furthering its own professional development or learning new things unless trained & forced by the job. it's perfectly fine to be an average dev, I understand I'm sounding like a snub but the difference is real, exists, it's tangible as I touch it every day.

having said that, designing a proper elixir module (which basically is a bunch of functions that operates on a certain data structure usually represented by map of a certain shape) carries a certain level of fundamental understanding of the operation you're doing, which in my experience is one of the hardest things to get correctly.

It also requires a different way of exploring code as you can't do the familiar `.` and see what happens, you can't just do `price.toCentsValue` but need to do `price |> Price.toCentsValue` and so you need to know the existence of the `Price` module, which might not exist and be buried in `Cart` or as an helper in some controller because you did not understand clearly the domain and the modules responsibilities. Attaching behaviour to data is powerful, explorable, and most people are used to it, even if it's the wrong place in principle, with modules this is flipped, it's now data that must thread through operations, and it's not super easy to grasp.

Also, tooling is not that good (dialyzer sucks, intellij plugin not that good, vscode lsp good but still not a proper experience from people coming from c#/java, type annotations are not that readable...), pattern matching and destructuring on fn arguments confuses people and it's not super easy to read, and a million other papercuts related to tooling and syntax.

We don't have many elixir codebases (let's say around 15-25%) and I've seen incessant whining about "we don't want to maintain elixir" simply because the majority of people cannot be bothered to learn another mountain of quirks and papercuts (every lang has them) plus also losing the familiar way of working they already have, and having to remember that for the spot ticket that appears once in a blue moon on jira for elixir. That's why I think elixir needs extra support from the organization, basically in mandating it to be the primary language, teaching people proper design + proper code navigation and structure techniques, etc.

I hope I've been clear in my long winded ramblings; and I still wish a great future for elixir, so it becomes more approachable in average places like mine

[parthdesai]

> It also requires a different way of exploring code as you can't do the familiar `.` and see what happens, you can't just do `price.toCentsValue` but need to do `price |> Price.toCentsValue` and so you need to know the existence of the `Price` module, which might not exist and be buried in `Cart` or as an helper in some controller because you did not understand clearly the domain and the modules responsibilities. Attaching behaviour to data is powerful, explorable, and most people are used to it, even if it's the wrong place in principle, with modules this is flipped, it's now data that must thread through operations, and it's not super easy to grasp.

Not sure, I think you're picking and choosing things to ramble about. While you can't just do `price.toCentsValue`, and have to call `Price` module, in a OO language, you would need to instantiate `price = new Price(amount 10)` or something before calling `toCentsValue`. This means you're aware of the Price class, same as being aware of the Price module. If anything being aware of the module infact is better IMO since it allows you trace through explicitly what the code is going to do. Your point is correct if you're working through macros though.

[gv83]

I'm not really picking anything, just sharing how it went with elixir in my org. I'm sure we could have done better, but the pit of success was not there for the polyglot teams. the elixir-only teams did a bit better, but mostly they just learned the ecosystem and then GTFO'ed out to greener pastures since they just wanted to write elixir and only elixir.

about your specific counterpoint, I think it's partially valid; I don't instantiate modules, I might not have named structs but just operate on Maps so I don't know the supposed module name, I might have misplaced the function in another module (while it's very intuitive to stick it to the object in oop)...and a million other things that are way too different for the average joe.

[pythonaut_16]

Thanks for sharing!

We could certainly debate the objective merits of Elixir vs other languages (which seems to be the primary discourse in this thread and elsewhere) but hearing subjective developer experiences is also critical.

It doesn't matter if Elixir is objectively better or not, if lots of devs who are exposed to it are having a hard time it's worth asking why.

In addition to developers not wanting to expend additional effort to learn a new language or paradigm, I believe there are gaps in the ecosystem especially around medium-advanced topics.

[jrmiii]

I'd be interested to hear what some of those gaps are from your perspective, as they represent opportunities for community creators.

In other words, what resources do you wish existed?

[suryong]

The org I work at has the same issue with Elm, there is one Elm product and no one really wants to take those tickets because everyone hates dealing with it. It has become a total pain in the ass, and I believe someone is rewriting the app in React

[pmarreck]

I'm guessing the people who actually love Elm left.

You really do have to love a paradigm to work with it, because paradigm shifts have a cost. Elm's paradigm shift is "do everything declaratively/immutably/non-side-effecty" and the massive (IMHO) benefit of going about things that way is "no runtime errors" (!!!) in addition to quite performant code.

But yes, the cost is there, and it is that you sometimes just want a side-effect to get something done, you sometimes just want to call into another library to get something done, etc.

The thing is, if Elm allowed this, or made it easier, you'd lose the Elm guarantee of "no runtime errors". Which, frankly, is a pretty big one- just inspect any popular domain's web page and you're likely to see dozens of JS errors that are simply hidden from most users, contributing to a "janky" web experience.

I literally just inspected this very page I'm typing this comment on and I see:

    This page is in Quirks Mode. Page layout may be impacted. For Standards Mode use “<!DOCTYPE html>”.
    Error: Promised response from onMessage listener went out of scope

The cost of perfection is high. You really have to love the ideal.

But yes, if no one does, then Elm is a boondoggle.

I'm dealing with something similar with NixOS. NixOS's big guarantee (which is also big) is basically "no build or runtime failures that are due to misconfigured dependencies". But there's a steep learning curve and scattered documentation. The core idea is amazing, though, and that's what I love. The rest I tolerate while climbing the mountain.

[parthdesai]

That's going to be the case with almost any legacy project though

[pmarreck]

> I work in an average org with average joe devs. an average joe dev to me is someone who "just wants a job" and is not very interested in furthering its own professional development or learning new things unless trained & forced by the job

so basically you're all doing things you hate, which is literally the worst possible work environment, and you're trying to use this as a data point for why Elixir "isn't for average coders". I have news for you, dude, you're not even at the "average coders" level, you just work in a "code mill", I'm guessing India.

[gv83]

you have an absolutely skewed perception of average in our field. I'm guessing "less than 3 years of experience".

nevermind the random stab, it's just to make you understand how random some answers are. in any case, no one is trying to touch your precious language, if you can't understand the context in which elixir failed (hot startup that HAD to hire everyone and its dog in 3 months + polyglot environment), not my problem

[catchnear4321]

your last paragraph largely answers your questions.

it doesn’t take much to yeet some python scripts (and more) at the wall and get something to stick. SO, GPT, pick your poison, it’s painfully easy. solved problems as far as the eye can see, with a little glue or tape to hold it together.

elixir demands more of an investment. more than approximately zero is quite a bit if you already have momentum.

(elixir can absolutely be yeeted. not arguing otherwise.)

[throwawaymaths]

Honestly long run elixir code by LLMs is going to be better because the llm won't have enough attention or context to be sure that mutable passes to functions don't absolutely wreck your data

[lvass]

On the other hand, it may filter less dedicated people from showing up at your door.

[gv83]

this has been a point of contention with numerous hr departments that needs to hire fast "cuz investors!!11". this is the reality of life sadly

[throwawaymaths]

This is the real problem.

Most orgs that fail on elixir fail due to management.

[gv83]

absolutely, that's what I said when I talked about strong org support.

also, if you don't have strong org support, you risk getting onboard people that just want to work with that specific technology that WILL gtfo as soon as they need to change team to one that doesn't use it, or if the technology is sunset, etc., so it's even more risky to have an exotic stack in the middle of more common stacks

[throwawaymaths]

This is a problem, that needs to be fixed in tech management. Tech managers need to trust their dev talent. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy.

Elixir is risky, so let's move off of it ==> devs leave. Elixir seems risky.

And then the devs/ecosystem gets blamed.

[pythonaut_16]

Also a risk of polyglot environments. You can easily end up with teams that lack deep knowledge of the languages and libraries you're using.

[thibaut_barrere]

I do agree with the need to make it more approachable indeed.

It is too much a "language of experts" at the moment, although it is not caused by the language itself, more by the topics covered in general.