[chrsig]

> Running a tor node is a thankless thing one can choose to do. Nevertheless I did for years. I don't do it anymore.

It's hard to determine tor's net-value to society, since it's such a double bladed sword. I'm not sure it's something deserving of thanks.

[ReactiveJelly]

I'm a Tor user. It's also hard to determine because so much of the web is read-only or downright inaccessible via Tor.

Most big sites use a chain of reputation like this:

1. To have an account on our site, you need a reputable email. Mailinator doesn't count. 2. To get a reputable email (GMail, Outlook, etc.) you need to sacrifice a phone number to receive texts to prove you aren't a bot. 3. There are no free VoIP services. Or they're blocked.

Reddit usually lets me create accounts without email, but I'm guessing they will cut this off soon.

I'm on a friendly Mastodon instance, but I had to offer a bogus email to register, which is technically dishonesty.

YouTube sometimes works.

I had a Discord account for a while. One of my ERP partners was willing to take the hit and set up a GMail account and Discord account for me (Discord wouldn't even let me in, I had to have him create the account and then give me the password.)

But I didn't log in to Discord for a while, and recently it said "Hey check for a confirmation email". I went to log in to GMail and it said, "Hey this is suspicious, please give us a phone number."

So there's no point re-joining, if I can only talk to people and have a "free" email address for as long as I can cyber-fuck someone into letting me borrow his phone. And I won't buy a burner phone because it's likely to have the same problems, plus all the PITA of real-life opsec.

The gratis web is fading to nothing. Everyone wants something. None of it is truly free. The fediverse instances will run as long as they get donations, but charities are subject to a tragedy of the commons. They will eventually close up registrations if enough humans join for the parasite bots to follow them.

People ask me why I bother. I must admit the payoff is not big.

I bother _on principle_. Anonymity is something that I _should_ have. I don't look at CP or anything. I do this because I like to learn, I like to practice, I like to know. You may as well write it off as religion and ask a Christian why they attend church or a Jain why they don't eat onions. I simply believe it is worth doing.

[brightlancer]

> The gratis web is fading to nothing. Everyone wants something. None of it is truly free. The fediverse instances will run as long as they get donations, but charities are subject to a tragedy of the commons. They will eventually close up registrations if enough humans join for the parasite bots to follow them.

You blame "everyone wants something" but it's more clear in your last sentence: abuse by unverified users.

Lots of folks will provide services for free (actually free, no data collection etc.) but very few folks have the disposable income to _pay_ for someone to handle abuse.

So folks who provide popular services long-term have to find some way to pay for it. OMG, imagine that.

With the caveat that cryptocurrencies are usually rubbish, cryptocurrencies have allowed folks to anonymously pay for anonymous access to services. This won't work for most mainstream services (in large part because of government opposition), but it's an option. At some point which I hope to live to see, we'll go back to the old days of anonymously paying for anonymous access. (Cash was awesome.)

[Ajedi32]

And to make that a bit more concrete, ProtonMail accepts Bitcoin and will let you create a truly anonymous account if you pay for their premium plan via that method.

Though to be fair it's actually pretty hard to obtain Bitcoin anonymously. Monero would be better. And this doesn't really solve the phone number problem.

[sickofparadox]

You can make as many accounts on protonmail.com as you'd like and I've never had a problem with it being accepted by websites I'm making an account on. If or how long this continues to be the case, I don't know, but for now at least you can stock up on accounts.

[Sterm]

This is the point where you need to check your privilege. I used tor when living in a dictatorship to find out things which would destroy the moral fabric of society, such as information about lgbtqia+ issues, what condoms are, pop music and news that the government didn't want to spread.

[chrsig]

I'm sorry you had to live through that, and I'm glad you had tools to subvert that oppression. I'm relieved that it sounds like you've escaped from that situation.

It was not my intent to assert any privilege, and it was my intent to acknowledge that scenario. If I may provide some clarification:

Marriam webster[0] defines 'double edged sword' to mean

> something that has or can have both favorable and unfavorable consequences

The use of Tor in the scenario you describe is one of the two blades (edges) I was referring to in my use of 'double bladed sword' -- the altruistic use case for which Tor absolutely should exist

The other side of the blade however, it's also used to facilitate terrible acts of abuse, notably to children (as demonstrated by the article) -- the destructive use case for which Tor absolutely should not exist.

It leaves Tor in a morally ambiguous place to me. It's not inherently bad or good. There are situations where it can be used for great good, and others when it can be used for great evil. Those situations would exist with or without Tor. I don't know if I should be thanking anyone maintaining it any more than I would thank an arms dealer.

[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/double-edged%20sw...

[Razengan]

> The other side of the blade however, it's also used to facilitate terrible acts of abuse, notably to children

How do we know you are not hosting CP?

Seems like the only way to really be sure is to make random raids on everyone and confiscate their equipment for a while.

[chrsig]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Can you rephrase, please?

[dlivingston]

Would a VPN not have sufficed as well? Tor seems like overkill for what you're describing.

[Sterm]

How does one pay a VPN when your country is under sanctions?

[throwaway290]

Get someone to sell you some euro and mail it to Mullvad.

[jrflowers]

> It's hard to determine tor's net-value to society, since it's such a double bladed sword. I'm not sure it's something deserving of thanks.

This is a good point. It’s hard to determine any tool’s net value to society. I’m not sure any tool ever made is deserving of thanks.

[Razengan]

> I'm not sure it's something deserving of thanks.

Why?

Why do people give thanks to their soldiers, who go kill people in other countries?

Or to cops, who kill people in their own country?