[sclarisse]

This is part of a series that’s been running in the WSJ for a week now. There are still lead lined cables all over the country, with little awareness of the risks they pose; the first article in the series discussed cables going past playgrounds and daycare centers.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lead-cables-telecoms-att-toxic-... https://archive.is/MA0wG

“Aerial lead cabling runs alongside more than 100 schools with about 48,000 students in total. More than 1,000 schools and child-care centers sit within half a mile of an underwater lead cable, according to a Journal analysis using data from research firm MCH Strategic Data.”

We took lead out of gas (except general aviation). Everyone who buys or rents an older home or even just buys paint at the hardware store is reminded of lead in paint. Most are aware of lead in pipes, especially where these pipes are present. Yet lead levels in children nationwide are still substantially higher than they should be given the mitigations that have already been done.

These cables are likely a huge portion of what’s left, and almost nobody has heard of them. Even when they’re right in front of your face hanging from a telephone pole.

[myself248]

"Within half a mile" is an inane standard. There's no evidence that a _buried_ cable leaches lead that far, that's simply bonkers. Lead is definitely not something to chew on, but this is histrionic fearbait reporting.

[mschuster91]

> There's no evidence that a _buried_ cable leaches lead that far

Well, the question is how much lead leaches out and gets transported by rainfall down to groundwater tables from which we source our drinking water.

[derefr]

I understand how lead-lined Roman aqueducts would put lead into drinking water — there's nowhere for the lead to go but to stay in the water, since the lead lining is below the water.

But I'm unclear on how lead that had leached into groundwater would remain in groundwater. Shouldn't the lead, being heavier than water, drop out of the groundwater and get caught up in the soil? Isn't this the primary filtering function we expect of soil — the reason aggregate is used as a filtering medium in wastewater treatment?

If not, wouldn't you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal? Wouldn't you expect that it'd be deadly to drink groundwater that had ever flowed through any underground ore deposits?

[retrac]

Elemental lead is fairly reactive - it forms a number of compounds, some of which are soluble in water. Dissolved compounds may precipitate but they don't always "fall out" simply because the elements in them are heavier.

> you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal?

That does happen. Cadmium is probably the most common culprit.

> In groundwater in Pakistan, mean Cd concentrations of 10 μg/L originated from Jurassic sulfide-bearing sedimentary rocks (Naseem et al., 2014). In Germany, background Cd concentrations in groundwater range from 0.11 μg/L in loess aquifers below arable land to 2.7 μg/L in sandy aquifers below forested lands [1]

The limit in the USA and EU is 5 ug/L. It's quite possible to drill a well with natural cadmium levels above the generally accepted safe level. Lead, arsenic, chromium, barium, and copper are other common culprits. In particular, chronic arsenic poisoning from naturally-occurring arsenic in ground water and aquifers affects many millions of people around the world.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7147761/

[whatshisface]

Virtually everything that dissolves in water is heavier than an H2O molecule, and a lot (most?) soluble salts are denser than water. If you want an example, table salt sinks to the bottom before dissolving. Also, yes, some ground waters are naturally high in different metals. Before drinking water from a well you drilled you usually have to get the well's water tested.

[derefr]

My assumption in writing the above was that non-soluble elemental lead metal (the thing the sheathing is made out of, and that Roman aqueducts were made out of, and the thing that soil could easily trap and filter out) is the "problem" with lead poisoning; while the lead ions in lead compounds are mostly safe. Like it is with mercury, where mercury amalgams are perfectly fine to use as dental fillings, but getting even a little metallic mercury past your skin will kill you.

Looking into it, though, apparently lead metal and lead ions are both toxic, through independent mechanisms. And that the toxicity of e.g. lead-based paint is due to the toxicity of lead compounds, rather than the toxicity of metallic lead.

Still: is there cause to believe that metallic lead from lead sheathing in cables, would react with something in the ground to form soluble lead compounds, rather than remaining particulate metal and therefore coming to rest in the soil? Things don't oxidize underground, right? And groundwater is usually pH-neutral enough to not create an environment amenable for reduction reactions involving e.g. chromium or sulfur, right?

I say this because several people above have mentioned that there are other metallic-ion "natural pollutants" in groundwater — but I've still never heard of groundwater with high natural lead levels.

[lazide]

You have mercury all wrong, and lead mostly so.

Elemental mercury is very difficult to absorb, and even in vapor form the LD50 is quite high. It typically requires extended exposure to even vapor from mercury to have any issues. Even a drop of organic mercury on a glove (let alone skin) can kill.

Historically, even periodically drinking liquid elemental mercury was relatively harmless and didn’t poison anyone. You’d have to do it a lot. The Louis and Clark expedition used it for its laxative effects, and it’s allowed historians to confirm which campsites were theirs or not, for instance.

Most compounds and salts of mercury, especially organic compounds, are incredibly toxic. [https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/mercury/mercorgcasedef.asp]

Many of those compounds form when metallic/elemental mercury is around certain microorganisms, like those in many ponds and lakes, or when man made.

Lead isn’t dissimilar. Lead poisoning (or measurable uptake) from elemental lead almost always requires extended ingestion or inhalation of lead, or ingestion/exposure to a salt or compound which allows easier intake.

The most common forms of lead poisoning usually involve things like habitual smoking or eating while having lead dust covered hands, or persistent ingestion of lead containing substances (like contaminated water) or breathing in of lead contaminated dust.

It takes a surprising amount of persistent exposure, unless someone is really stupid. Like doing oxyacetylene cutting of lead sheet without PPE, or cleaning a shooting range then not washing their hands after.

[bigbillheck]

> If not, wouldn't you expect to hear about...

I've certainly heard about such:

https://www.usgs.gov/mission-areas/water-resources/science/a...

> lead, being heavier than water, drop out of the groundwater

Sodium chloride is over twice as heavy as water, and yet doesn't 'drop out' of it.

[anthonyu]

A bit of a bad analogy as, in water, the sodium and chloride are not bound together; rather, the ions are separately distributed throughout and wouldn't have the same density that they would have in a dry, crystal, ionically bound form.

[gwbas1c]

> wouldn't you expect to hear about water tables that have problematically-high natural levels of this or that heavy metal?

Where I live, I get periodic water quality reports in the mail, with the test results for all kinds of different contaminants.

The reports always list the typical source of contaminants; and naturally-occurring metals in the ground is very common.

Interesting artifact: A well near my childhood home has unusually high levels of chromium for the town. It's believed to be from when someone was running a car repair shop near the watershed; and they left some brake drums or similar car parts outside.

[FreshStart]

It's usually not that. It's usually the car repair shop pouring left-over chrome containing colors and derusting solutions into the ground.

[sclarisse]

Note that the half-mile statistic is connected to underwater cables, not buried cables. It is certainly an overcount, but it is probably not trivial to assess the local hydrology and the extent to which children’s play areas might be exposed to such water.

[reaperducer]

it is probably not trivial to assess the local hydrology and the extent to which children’s play areas might be exposed to such water.

Especially since there are thousands and thousands of schools in America that get their water from wells.

It doesn't seem overly-cautious to wonder about lead placed under a water course 50 years to a century ago finding its way into the groundwater supply a half-mile away.

[prewett]

Hopefully that wondering would lead to testing the water to see whether there is actually a problem.

[gruez]

>It doesn't seem overly-cautious to wonder about lead placed under a water course 50 years to a century ago finding its way into the groundwater supply a half-mile away.

At that point wouldn't it be so diluted that it's basically indistinguishable from background levels?

[toast0]

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders why the telcos want us to know there's lead in the wires now.

Maybe so they have an excuse to tear the wires down and end services in areas they don't care to service anymore.

Maybe so they can get more subsidies to run fiber that they'll promise to connect people with, but won't ever need to account for.

[EvanAnderson]

The telco wiring in my area (Western Ohio) is a mess. I see pedestals with the cans broken open and splices exposed all over. The ILEC in my area (Frontier) is bankrupt, but the non-bankrupt ILECs in surrounding areas are doing no better with basic maintenance.

I get angry when I see it, thinking about the history of free easements, tax abatement, subsidy, and other favorable treatment that the telcos received, historically, and how they can leave this perfectly serviceable infrastructure to rot.

[simfree]

Copper facilities across the USA are past their design life. The cables themselves might be usable (if water intrusion has not happened, which is a big if), but the splice cases, splices and hardware on either end of the cable is often not doing well.

Frontier bought assets from Verizon knowing full well they were going to ride this infrastructure until it was worthless while investing as little as possible. It is no surprise the copper plant has rotted on the poles, they treated their copper and fiber plants like trash in nearly every part of their territory.

[Aloha]

Frontier did actually surprisingly invest lots of money into their copper plant, but the copper plant had been all but ignored from the the point Bell Atlantic bought GTE.

[jollyllama]

Telco wiring is decaying here in Western PA; signal quality and reliability gets worse every year. Customer service is nonexistent, "why won't you switch to VOIP/4G?"

[bob1029]

I am strongly on board with the subsidy theory. This wouldn't be the first time.

Looking at what this is doing to the stock price of AT&T adds another potential item to your list:

Hedge funds pushing well-timed narratives to their benefit.

[jmort253]

I've often thought the same thing about someone pushing this information out there simply to push the stock prices down. I'm wondering if it all will eventually blow over and if it's a good time to invest in AT&T and Verizon...

[bob1029]

Check out some historical perspective:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System

The post-breakup structure diagram is all I needed to see.

50/50 $T/$VZ long. Ez mode.

[alexzhues]

The original WSJ report used soil samples underneath old power lines to determine that there were still lead-sheathed cables leaking into the environment. And based on the responses from telco’s legal/PR departments (ie denial of health risks), this isn’t a story they wanted to leak.

[icedchai]

Yes, they probably want subsidies to remove the cable. Around here (VZ territory), they leave it to rot on the poles. Most of the area is on fiber now. If I walk around the block, I see broken copper cables, wires hanging out, squirrels nesting in the junctions, etc.

[hammock]

>Yes, they probably want subsidies to remove the cable

There's no way it's getting removed in the next 50 years without a subsidy so maybe this is...OK?

[icedchai]

I'd tend to agree, especially if they can put more fiber in place at the same time.

[ipaddr]

subsidy or environmental cleanup fee

[etempleton]

It is not a bad theory. The telecoms have been actively abandoning phone lines for years because it isn’t worth the cost for them to do so anymore, but they are still required to by law. Perhaps they think they can get the tear down and replacement with fiber subsidized.

[hanniabu]

They've probably reached a point where they're failing at a higher rate and need replacing. Leaking this info would get the government involved and the telcos can probably get the taxpayers to foot the bill replacing all of them.

[Aloha]

The cables are near end of life and unlikely to be replaced at all, because the entirety of the copper network and its associated hardware is also near end of life.

[EvanAnderson]

Given the myriad forethought, procedures, standards, and quality checks with which AT&T handled their network (pre-divestiture) I'd bet a lot telco cable plant is nowhere near "end of life".

It's just at "end of profitable life".

[Aloha]

As someone who is well versed in that, its at the end of its practical life.

Both PIC and Lead Cable pinhole overtime, the life of areal (either PIC or Leaded) cable is 30-50 years, the life of buried cable is 50-90 - all of this cable exceeds that point, and must be replaced.

The phone switches that are connected to the cable are all near or over 40 years old, and closer to 45-50 years old in design, the spares pool is surprisingly healthy (because so many switches have been decommed) but the software that runs of these switches is also near end of life - and in the sustaining engineering phase of its lifecycle.

There may be a life for some copper cable, but it will be literally the last mile. Which is a lot smaller in scope than what we have now.

[toast0]

I mean, it was probably all in great shape 40 years ago. But 40 years of missed opportunities to replace cabling failing quality checks (if they were even done) is probably taking its toll. I know of many anecdotes of poor quality lines where trouble tickets end up with a pair swap which works for several months, and then you need to swap to another pair. There's only so many spare pairs, but the silver (lead?) lining is that enough customers leave that you can take their good pairs to serve the remaining customers. I've personally experienced the poor line records that mean connecting a new customer might disconnect an old customer, leading to a service call down the street.

[Aloha]

There are also just so few customers left too.

For me as a phone nerd who would prefer to have a landline, but no longer have a good justification for it, and frankly I'm unsure if I even have a good drop anymore to my house (its not had service since 2010 - before I owned it).

I keep thinking I should reach out to AT&T and try to order services, but I just never quite get around to it.

[BitwiseFool]

It's certainly possible that this situation might sway Congress to pass some sort of lead wiring replacement act.

[DropInIn]

Beyond gross how often citizens are subsidizing the businesses that rob Peter to pay Paul... We should be forcing the profiteers (shareholders) to repay it and be imprisoning the thieves, not paying Peter (remediation) for them.

[bnjms]

Can tax payers also take ownership of the physical plant and sell access like we do to public airwaves? States rights should allow at least some states to do the right thing.

[hulitu]

It is usually to conceal more important news.

[MrVitaliy]

GA is getting rid of lead too -- https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/avgas#:~:text=The%20mo....

[downrightmike]

Actually little remediation has gone on, as it would cost billions to solve the problem and keep kids safe, and not many in government want to actually solve the issue. The only thing that has happened is pretty much the removal of lead from paint and gas and let nature bury the rest.

[BaculumMeumEst]

> Everyone who buys or rents an older home or even just buys paint at the hardware store is reminded of lead in paint. Most are aware of lead in pipes, especially where these pipes are present. Yet lead levels in children nationwide are still substantially higher than they should be given the mitigations that have already been done.

Things like food contamination can be tricky to stop, but we’re getting better at it. I get amazon alerts when batches of a food I buy from whole foods were found to be contaminated. That’s only happened once, but it turned out to be okay.

Worth noting that the mitigations you mentioned do work, because many kids live in the environment you describe but do not have elevated levels of lead.

[chaxor]

This is just an absolutely awful idea simply due to the weight.

The reason people are trying to get carbon nanotube electricity lines in the air is not because 'nano' is a cool word, but because they're really light while conducting electricity. Lead is, well, quite the opposite of that.

[kevin_thibedeau]

> This is just an absolutely awful idea simply due to the weight.

Buried cables used to be lead jacketed before viable polymers suitable for long term use were developed in the modern era.

[hammock]

Carbon nanoparticles might pose their own risk, though my intuition suggests the threat is not as immediate or great as that from lead

[scrlk]

It would not surprise me if carbon nanoparticles could act in a similar way to asbestos, if inhaled.

[chaxor]

This has already been shown to be true, many times.

There are significant problems with swcnts (and even more so with dwcnts or mwcnts, due to less effective macrophage breakdown from h2o2 release). But there are some applications where their use can be a large improvement. The fact that only very well trained professionals should ever come in contact with certain materials (like extremely high powered lines) makes this use case more acceptable. Additionally, concealing swcnts in a polymer and using extrusion methods of chlorosulfonic acid into carbon tetrachloride to make really compact nanowires can help quite a bit for making the product affect the public less if any problem may occur that downs the power lines.

[Gordonjcp]

Isn't it a problem that carbon is mostly one of the things you make nearly every resistor out of, instead of wires?

[chaxor]

Armchair swcnts are ballistic conductors. It matters quite a lot how that carbon is oriented.

[Gordonjcp]

How well do they conduct? At the moment aluminium is kind of the "sweet spot" between weight, cost, and conductivity.

[chaxor]

Ballistic conduction means 'perfect' conduction in a sense. There's no resistance. It's only for armchair swcnts though. Other metallic swcnts are also great conductors, but if you separate out the chiralities (semiconductors, etc) you might as well separate to just armchairs.

[DANmode]

It depends on the local water table, doesn't it?