[arcticbull]

If they only killed mice that would be a fun fact, but they also kill 20 billion small mammals a year, lol. The point was though that cats are killing all the birds, that they help a few people with a mouse problem is tangential at best to the topic at hand. I can accept that mice are a problem and cats are killing all the birds and small mammals at the same time. It’s kind of like saying DDT is fine actually because it helps a few farmers improve their crop yields. That it does, but it nukes the eagles from orbit too, and we have to look at this systemically.

Once we accepted DDT as a problem we found alternative solutions. But there’s also localized solutions. A few spayed/neutered farm cats aren’t the end of the world.

[b112]

that they help a few people with a mouse problem is tangenti

You like to eat, yes? Because I assure you, without cats, or something to replace them that does what cats do, you and I will starve to death.

Farmers don't have cats because they're cute. 3They have them to stop rodents from eating silo, seeds, fields bare.

What do you plan to do? Spray death chemicals all over the place, as a replacement?

And no, trapping won't work. It never kills enough, and there are never enough traps.

Honestly, I sincerely doubt cats are the issue. Cats do very poorly away from human settlements, and therefore there's loads of area without cat habitat. In Canada, most of the land is cat free, there is so much land without cats, it would be impossible for them to wipe out a noticeable percentage of birds.

There's no way they're the problem, as a result of this, when we're talking about 1/3 of the birds.

A far better explanation is insect population collapse. Missing food.

[arcticbull]

> Because I assure you, without cats, or something to replace them that does what cats do, you and I will starve to death.

You could have made the same argument about DDT. You have to acknowledge the problem before you can find a different solution.

With enough determination it’s quite feasible. You know as a Canadian that Alberta is the only place in the Americas without rats. They have a very successful management program. [1]

Cats are an invasive species, so are rats. Alternatives exist, please stop being so defensive. Given this topical counterexample it hardly seems like a case of “cats vs food and hentavirus” since Alberta has no rats, plenty of food and no hentavirus without relying on cats.

> There's no way they're the problem, as a result of this, when we're talking about 1/3 of the birds.

… they kill 10% of birds per year. Times 3 years is just about 1/3. Given it occurred over 50 years I’d say we’ve got us a good candidate. Especially since there is documented evidence of them leading to the extinction of entire species. You can see how the math here is within the ballpark yeah?

[1] https://www.alberta.ca/history-of-rat-control-in-alberta.asp...

[b112]

Alberta is not rat free. It claims to be, but poke about a bit, and you'll see how fake that claim is.

And rats are not mice. And Alberta has plenty of cats around farms.

And the replacements for DDT are destroying insect populations. The problem is NOT cats. I notice you didn't explain why birds, in all the areas without cats, which is all areas in Canada without human settlements very close by, which is most of Canadian land, are dying too.

You're attributing cats to the problem, then explaining how it's proof it's cats.

[arcticbull]

> Alberta is not rat free. It claims to be, but poke about a bit, and you'll see how fake that claim is.

Once again no sources cited on your part other than, I guess, your gut, and "poking around."

> The problem is NOT cats.

You haven't made a case for that. The studies I dug up say quite the opposite, that cats are a massive source of wild bird mortality, that they've driven several species to extinction. I have cited sources and you seem to just be shooting from the hip?

> ... in all the areas without cats, which is all areas in Canada without human settlements very close by, which is most of Canadian land, are dying too.

What makes you think cats aren't in areas without human settlements very close by? This map shows they're all over the place. [1] And if that doesn't convince you check out the invasive feral cat population map in Australia where they actually wanted to cull the population. [2] They live on every square inch of Australia, and let me tell you, people do not.

"In some cases, house cats have singularly contributed to the virtual disappearance of Vancouver Island bird species. The streaked horned lark, once a resident of southern Vancouver Island, is now likely locally extinct in Canada, and cats were cited as one of the main causes of nest failure." [1]

"The coastal vesper sparrow has seen its population drop by 85 per cent over the past decade, and a federal government analysis cited a “high concentration of domestic and feral cats” as factors in their decline." [1]

Stop just repeating "nuh uh" and dig up some studies or lets end this conversation here, because the fact is, you are wrong on this one.

> You're attributing cats to the problem, then explaining how it's proof it's cats.

No, I'm cities studies that attribute it to cats.

[1] https://www.capitaldaily.ca/news/cat-victoria-songbird-feral...

[2] https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/invasive-species/feral...

[b112]

Wild house cats cannot live without prey, and they are not adapted to -40C, let alone -20C for weeks at a time. They cannot live in many parts of North America without humans settlements.

There are native cats in Canada, skilled at even detecting prey under feet of snow, but house cats are not that.

There is no significant cat presence in Canada, outside of human habitats.

I notice you cited Vancouver Island, the most temperate place in Canada. And there are deserts in Australia, cats don't live there without humans, yet there are birds adapted to the desert.

[arcticbull]

[citation needed]

[giantg2]

The outdoor neighborhood cats are the ones that are an issue. It sounds like promoting owl habitat would be a great targeted solution to mice problem without affecting small birds as much.

[dunefox]

Great Horned Owls apparently also kill cats, so that might be a perfect solution.

[tetris11]

I feel like we're sliding into snake territory now.

[TeMPOraL]

Owl also kill other birds, so...

[giantg2]

They can, but that's less of an issue since other birds are not active at the same time.

[dunefox]

But they're not pets that are released into the wild by the million.

[rcarr]

> that they help a few people with a mouse problem is tangential at best to the topic at hand

No, they help the people who are putting food on your plate. Good luck living your life if the farmers can’t do their job.