[csears]

Nope, not a joke. Currently more of a thought experiment that could turn into a startup if it really seems viable.

I'm in the US and I would actually be very interested in chatting with the DEA about my idea. If it turns out there is no legal way to move ahead with my idea, I won't pursue it further. As I said, I'm not even sure what kind of lawyer I could contact to get advice about this kind of thing. Saul Goodman?

I'm aware that the fentanyl is added on purpose, but I don't think they want to add so much that it kills their customers.

Last year there was some discussion of legalizing cocaine production in Columbia. I think the plan was eventually rejected, but it seems like people are seriously considering creative solutions.

[raincom]

Be careful dealing with federal agents and federal agencies. They can get you for "lying to federal agents". Always have a lawyer next to you, so that this lawyer can take notes, thereby preventing you from being charged under "trumped up charges". I don't know why you are exploring this area, unless you want to spend some time in some federal penitentiary.

[csears]

Good advice. I know there have been situations where federal agencies have turned out to be "the bad guys", but I guess I'm optimistic that they are generally smart, well intentioned, and interested in some of the same outcomes that I'm talking about.

As to why I'm exploring this, it's just a topic I've been thinking about lately. My daughter is starting college in the fall and they've had a lot of deaths over the last few years from fentanyl in pot. I plan to send her with a bunch of fentanyl test strips. If she ends up using them for herself or friends or other random college kids, it could very realistically save a life. Depending on how that goes, I'm also looking at a program to get fentanyl test strips to college kids for free on a larger scale.

[derekja]

"lot of deaths over the last few years from fentanyl in pot."

Can you share a case where this has been confirmed? There was some hysteria in Connecticut last year, but my understanding is that this has never actually happened. I'd love to see a pointer to a coroner's report on a case of accidental fentanyl ingestion from laced pot having led to an overdose.

I have seen cases of fentanyl test strips coming up positive, but only with incidental contamination rather than anything in concentrations that are actually hazardous. Fentanyl decomposes at under 300 degrees and pot burns at 450, so it is not actually a viable route to ingestion.

[csears]

I'll try to find a good source to back up the claim. The statement was made in a verbal, in-person presentation by the deputy chief of the university police, who was told by the city coroner. But for all I know, he could have made it up in an attempt to scare the kids.

[DonHopkins]

>But for all I know, he could have made it up in an attempt to scare the kids.

Yet you just unquestioningly publicly stated it as fact, so what does that make you?

>My daughter is starting college in the fall and they've had a lot of deaths over the last few years from fentanyl in pot.

[ss1996]

Fyi, Fentanyl strips are not full proof. This is because the amount of Fentanyl mixed is so small, there is high likelihood that no Fentanyl is picked up in the tested sample. In other words, high chance of false negatives. Test kits + narcan on hand is the best way to be safe.

[csears]

That's good to know. I've only done a little initial research around this. I ordered some test strips from a manufacture called MD-Bio (https://mdbio.com). I'll be sure to review all their instructions and safety info.

Out of curiosity, are you saying that a Fentanyl level can be so low that it's undetectable by the test strips, but still high enough to kill someone?

[ttul]

First, fentanyl is only one of many adjuvants that are mixed with illegal street drugs. Far more exotic compounds exist and are circulating. The issue is that illegal drug labs aren’t necessarily mixing the adjuvant in correctly. There can be “hot spots” where a granule of the toxic drug is not properly distributed, leading to some part of a sample having a vastly higher concentration than others.

So when you test your drugs with the test strip, if the hot spot isn’t in the test sample, you’re gonna die. And many of the adjuvants do not resolve with Narcan.

There is no way to reduce the risk of illegally produced drugs to a tolerable level in today’s environment. Don’t kid yourself. Tell you daughter she runs a serious risk of death even with testing. This shit is no joke.

[csears]

Thanks for the extra details here. I can see how challenging it would be to know with a high degree of certainty that a drug was truly safe just using test strips. But it seems like the test strips are a practical, relatively low cost option that, while not perfect, could improve the status quo.

Test strips aren't the only option that I'm investigating. I know there are some facilities that will do lab tests to check for fentanyl and other dangerous additives. That might end up being a better approach.

I have family and friends with pharmaceutical industry, chemistry, and medical/healthcare backgrounds that I've reached out to for advice on the issue, especially the question of weather it's possible to safely use the test strips with a low risk of some kind of exposure.

[ss1996]

No, I meant what Gymbeaux said.

Since Fentanyl is so potent, it's mixed in such low volume. The dosage is still high enough to kill you due to the potency.

Let's assume the desired drug to fentanyl ratio is 1000:1 by volume. When you take a small random sample of this, there's a good chance that 0 parts of Fentanyl have been selected in this random sample. You'll get a clean test result, even though the drug contains lethal amounts of Fentanyl.

[gymbeaux]

I would surmise that it’s possible for fentanyl to be in one part of the “drug” but not the part that is necessarily used on the test strip?

[ImPostingOnHN]

most test kits properly instruct you on this, but you can dissolve your entire dose, or the entire batch, in water, test that, then either consume like that or let the water evaporate

in other words, testing a portion doesn't consume that portion, so you can literally test and then consume the same dose

stay safe

[toyg]

> interested in some of the same outcomes

You're being very optimistic there. For a lot of people "higher up", not just in law enforcement, extra deaths as a side effect of drug-handling is a feature, not a bug.

[xcdzvyn]

> If it turns out there is no legal way to move ahead with my idea,

No, there is no legal way to "move ahead" with abetting drug cartels.

[badpun]

I always wonder where's the legal boundary of abetting. If I sell a cartel member a pack of chewing gum at a gas station, I'm probably not abetting. But what if I'm a book store owner, I know the customer is a chemist for the cartel, and I sell him a chemistry book? Is that criminal? Why/why not?

[ksherlock]

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R43769.pdf -- Accomplices, Aiding and Abetting, and the Like: An Overview of 18 U.S.C. § 2

Conviction under Section 2(a) requires that a defendant embrace the crime of another and consciously do something to contribute to its success. Although its elements are variously described, it is often said that, “[i]n order to aid and abet another to commit a crime it is necessary [1] that a defendant in some sort associate himself with the venture, [2] that he participate in it as in something that he wishes to bring about, [3]that he seek by his action to make it succeed,” and [4] that someone commits the offense. Satisfying only one of these elements is not enough. Thus, presence at the commission of a crime or close association with the perpetrator does not constitute aiding and abetting, without more. Yet, a defendant’s level of participation may be relatively minimal and need not advance every element of the crime. As for seeking to make it succeed, the defendant must intend the commission of the underlying offense, and that intent requires that he be aware beforehand of the scope of the offense in order to permit him to disassociate himself. Thus, the defendant must know that the offense is afoot before it occurs if he is to be convicted of aiding and abetting.

--

So... it depends? If someone walks into your bookstore and says, "Hey, I want to cook up some meth" and you say "I know a great chemistry book but i'll have to special order it for you" that starts to look like association to me. But buying a book off the shelf, ehh, that's why you have books on the shelf. Guns are used in crimes. Cars are used in crimes. How often do you hear about car salesmen being arrested for aiding a bank robbery? Or gun salesman for a mass shooting?

[csears]

I appreciate you pointing out that specific statue and sharing your interpretation. My idea would have non-criminal use cases as well, but I'm not clear if that is sufficient. Criminals can use Telegram to communicate about crimes. Does that mean that Telegram is aiding and abetting? I'm definitely out of my depth on the legal details, which is why I would get good legal advice before doing anything.

[toyg]

The Law is never perfect. Who the judge is, who the jury is, how they woke up on a given day, etc etc, can often be the difference between innocence and guilt, in the eyes of the system.

Book owner "looks shifty", smokes pot recreationally, is known by prostitutes? Guilty. Book owner wears tweed, went to Harvard, is well-liked in book-clubs? Innocent.

[Traubenfuchs]

If you decide at any point not to go ahead, please make your ideas and research public.

[csears]

I will be making the ideas public shortly. No research yet. Stay tuned and thanks for the encouragement.

[DonHopkins]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark here, but I bet you're a huge Ayn Rand fan, aren't you?